Engine Issues - Timing Chain?

[UnstableOS]

At some point Audi is going to have to address these failures and issue some sort of recall. We see a huge amount of people on the forums posting about the exact same problems several times a month, and that's only a small percentage of owners, most people just go to the service departments and pay for the work without ever looking at or posting on a forum.

If I see more than 5 more unique engine failures in the next 90 days my S4 is getting sold.

[mbgt72]

^^ I think you mean the perfect reason to get a built motor haha.

[DuncanC]

^^ I think you mean the perfect reason to get a built motor haha.

Thats how I see it... Going to need to do a timing job as regular service at some point anyway. If the engine is out, the timing chains are all off already. Why not keep going and pull the heads, do a hone, and put forged rods and pistons in. I'm really hoping JHM come up with a engine exchange program where you pull off your starter, AC pump, power steering pump, IM, Pulley, Mounts, ECT. Send in the bare block and heads, and get back a built block with new timing components with your heads on it on a quick time frame.

[DuncanC]

At some point Audi is going to have to address these failures and issue some sort of recall. We see a huge amount of people on the forums posting about the exact same problems several times a month, and that's only a small percentage of owners, most people just go to the service departments and pay for the work without ever looking at or posting on a forum.

If I see more than 5 more unique engine failures in the next 90 days my S4 is getting sold.

To be fair this engine fail is a completely new variation as far as I know. There are two big fails that happen a little too often for comfort, but this one doesn't could towards their totals.

[UnstableOS]

I agree, it's a different issue compared to the normal 5 a week related to chains. Either way the car fails too much for my comfort level.

[BCsniper]

If I see more than 5 more unique engine failures in the next 90 days my S4 is getting sold.

At the rate that these cars are now getting to higher mileage, this is going to get more and more common. It just happened to the other V8 S4 here in my town and my car would be only shortly behind, except that I'm not currently driving it.


I'd like to see Audi do something about this, but there's about a snowball's chance in hell that that will ever happen


sadly I agree with something jFunkey had to say about this issue: it's not if these parts are going to fail, but when. There's not a whole lot out there that make it to/past 130K miles. I wanted to dey this (mostly just because it's about to happen to me) but I have no accepted the fact, it's hard not to when you see it happen to everyone else with only a couple exceptions.....and even they didn't make it past 150K miles

[AndyGs4]

Getting these motors built right is looking to be more and more a requirement if you plan on keeping the car for a long time.

I had nothing but trouble last year, and because of that I have stockpiled 2 motors and a set of heads. In the process of swapping now and I am going to take one to get built shortly.

It is kinda sad, I miss the bulletproof I5s of the early 1990s. I have seen them go to 350,000 miles without a hiccup.

[BCsniper]

shit.......I'm thinking beemercer has the right idea. We need to go back to the belt-driven V8......you might have to replace timing belts but the sure as hell beats an engine pull to replace chain components. I saw an older A8 for sale locally that had just under 300K miles on it

[DuncanC]

The interval between needing to service the timing components is so long with the latest revision part that is it really a big deal? Your motor has to come out what? Once every 100,000 miles? Pulling the motor isn't that big of a job, the shops that have done it before and know what they are doing don't charge that much for it... You want to drive a high performance german car, you want to drive one with lots of miles on it, well the service bill is going to be on the high side, I don't see this service as that big of a deal.

[BCsniper]

Pulling the motor isn't that big of a job, the shops that have done it before and know what they are doing don't charge that much for it... .

Really not that big of a job......come on. I'd call it a pretty major overhaul, that is going to take a long time unless it's someone who know exactly what they're doing and have done it before a time or two. I know these people/shops exist.........they're just not that common and aren't exactly available/close to everyone.

A guaranteed $5K engine pull and overhual every ~100K miles, I'd say that's a pretty big deal and not the "bulletproof" motor everyone thought it was "back in the day"

[DuncanC]

Thats where the difference is. I don't think thats unreasonable at all. The higher end car you want to own the bigger the upkeep costs. I think this car in particular attracted a lot of buyers in recent years that honestly are in over there heads and it would be more financially responsible of them to own something more reasonable. Nobody needs a A4 sized car with a V8 crammed in there. It is a luxury to be lucky enough to be able to do so. But just because you can afford to get your hands on a particular car doesn't mean you can afford to own it. A guy who makes $150k a year can finance a newish Ferrari, but he can't afford to own it, the car will break him within a year if he is doing the proper upkeep, if not it will break him within 2 years when it breaks.

Unless you really mile the fuck out of your S4 it works out to less than $1k/year. If you mile the fuck out of your S4 and can't afford the $1k/year then your being dumb with your money, get something better on gas to mile out and drive the S4 on weekends as a luxury. You'll save another $1k/year in fuel.

To me the upkeep costs are reasonable for the level of car. Some people just have eyes for more car than they can afford. They live beyond their means, and if something goes wrong they don't have the cash to fix it since their income goes to servicing their debt.

[AndyGs4]

^^ The problem is this 'higher up' car is falling into price points where people can get them for the same cost as a new Econobox. But these people can't necessarily afford a $4500 to $7000 timing service; and don't have the knowledge/means to do it themselves. And many used S4s are getting to the point where they really are getting close to a timing service right when purchased (80-110K miles).

So you get someone who just payed $20-$30K for a used performance car and within a year they are slapped with a four figure repair bill. Doesn't bode well when you can take your pick of several other performance cars in the same price point that don't have a comparable problem.

I love my S4, I have owned several other performance cars, but I always come back to Audi. But I would not recommend a used 4.2 S4 to anyone without a warning.

If you find a used one and it just had a timing service, great. If you find a B6 with 85K on original parts, you had better be getting a screaming deal because your likely gonna drop about $5K into it on one repair within 2-3 years. It seems to just be the reality with this motor.

[dmaxben]

up to ~102k now. Switched to lubri moly oil about 2k ago and it quieted down the cold-start rattle a pretty decent amount. Even with 2k on the oil, it still is much quieter than before when I first got the car.

Does not burn a drop of oil either. I changed the oil a little over 2k ago and the oil level is still exactly where it was when I changed it last.

No blowby either if I open the oil cap when its idling.

ben

[SpeedETC]

Thats where the difference is. I don't think thats unreasonable at all. The higher end car you want to own the bigger the upkeep costs. I think this car in particular attracted a lot of buyers in recent years that honestly are in over there heads and it would be more financially responsible of them to own something more reasonable. Nobody needs a A4 sized car with a V8 crammed in there. It is a luxury to be lucky enough to be able to do so. But just because you can afford to get your hands on a particular car doesn't mean you can afford to own it. A guy who makes $150k a year can finance a newish Ferrari, but he can't afford to own it, the car will break him within a year if he is doing the proper upkeep, if not it will break him within 2 years when it breaks.

Unless you really mile the fuck out of your S4 it works out to less than $1k/year. If you mile the fuck out of your S4 and can't afford the $1k/year then your being dumb with your money, get something better on gas to mile out and drive the S4 on weekends as a luxury. You'll save another $1k/year in fuel.

To me the upkeep costs are reasonable for the level of car. Some people just have eyes for more car than they can afford. They live beyond their means, and if something goes wrong they don't have the cash to fix it since their income goes to servicing their debt.

^^ The problem is this 'higher up' car is falling into price points where people can get them for the same cost as a new Econobox. But these people can't necessarily afford a $4500 to $7000 timing service; and don't have the knowledge/means to do it themselves. And many used S4s are getting to the point where they really are getting close to a timing service right when purchased (80-110K miles).

So you get someone who just payed $20-$30K for a used performance car and within a year they are slapped with a four figure repair bill. Doesn't bode well when you can take your pick of several other performance cars in the same price point that don't have a comparable problem.

I love my S4, I have owned several other performance cars, but I always come back to Audi. But I would not recommend a used 4.2 S4 to anyone without a warning.

If you find a used one and it just had a timing service, great. If you find a B6 with 85K on original parts, you had better be getting a screaming deal because your likely gonna drop about $5K into it on one repair within 2-3 years. It seems to just be the reality with this motor.

I agree with both of these points. A buddy of mine picked up a B6 S4 over a year ago and ended up selling it this summer because he did not want to have the motor pulled and serviced. When he first bought it I kept telling him he is getting a car that was $50k new so be prepared for the bills. Obviously he didn't heed my warning.

[DaveD]

I agree with some of the points above. While the guides for the timing chain is almost a guaranteed thing for 100k miles, theres also the large amount of motors consuming oil. It pretty easy to find a block for this car on the forums and there are always a few cars you can pick up with blown motors. Imagine spending the $ to fix the guides and then have scored cylinders within a year, you could be spending close to what the car is worth in just repairs.

[norcal]

The interval between needing to service the timing components is so long with the latest revision part that is it really a big deal?

Are you saying there's a service interval for the timing components? I never thought there was, nor would I expect one. My opinion is that the chain guides were poorly designed for longevity. No chain driven engine should need regular (even 100k) service.

[Vee8s4]

I believe there is a service interval for the timing system. I believe that number is 100k.

This bullshit has lots of people worried...100k should be a no brained in modern cars. We are seeing failures much sooner than 100k. I will likely be ditching my piece of shit once the summer rolls around.

Here's my list of repairs in 2 years of ownership. My car was bought at 38k...full service history, one owner car.

-3 window regulators
-drivers side window switch
-coolant temp sensor
-wiper transmission assembly
-pass side aux rad
-dual mass flywheel

The car currently has 58k miles on it. Regular oil changes with lubro moly every 5k since I've owned it.

The chains rattle like a BITCH every time I start the car cold. Seems like it's only a matter of time.

[SpeedETC]

Audi did not define a service interval for the chains/guides in any of their material that I have seen, but coming from VR6s I knew the plastic guides did not hold up. I replaced all my guides, tensioners, and chains this summer (just over 100k at the time) and the effort/cost was worth it.

[ronaldmcdonald]

UPDATE #3 1/25/2011

Looks like this thread turned into a debate about everything that's been running through my head the last few weeks. When I bought the car for $21k I knew it would be expensive to maintain and service. I budgeted for a new clutch at 70k, etc. I just didn't budget for an engine failure at 65k miles. I figured a German engineered audi would last me well into 100k+ miles without any significant problems. This feeling was further confirmed by the fact that I didn't have any real issues the first 22k miles. Oh well. No use dwelling on it now.

I stopped by the car this evening. I took a couple quick videos of the car and cleaned all my belongings out in case it sells. I'm not sure if the videos will help, But I'll post them for reference. In the second one I think you can clearly hear the timing chain.

Still taking offers for the car. It's on ebay right now. But I'm not sure if it will meet the reserve ($10k) by Saturday afternoon. Perhaps I'm living in my own world, But I still think this is a great chance for someone to pick up a great condition S4 if they have the ability to do the engine work/replacement. I guess I just haven't found that person yet. The most disappointing thing about selling the car is that I probably won't ever find out definitively what was wrong.

Feel free to embed these, I'm not sure how.

[ame]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hVvEk2E1haE[/ame]

[ame]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=laFZ_Dpm4lM[/ame]

[Vee8s4]

They diagnosed that sound as a HG failure?

[norcal]

Running the engine in that condition isn't helping anything.

[mbgt72]

Wow, yea. . . doesn't sound good, but def sounds like the chains in that second one.

[halik]

For the record, the B7 and newer guides might be made out of a different material. The original 04 ones on my car were black and almost bakelite-like where as the B7 ones were brown and the brand new ones were sort of tan color. The latter two definitely felt closer to nylon.

[Joey]

Tough to get rid of the car with a bad motor for 10k. If it were in the 7 range id take it in a heart beat. I really want to tinker with a motor that needs a new chain and get the proper tools to do it myself. It would be a great DIY for the community.

[mbgt72]

^ damn yea it would. I'd like to see an idiot guide to timing chain replacement DIY (well you know what I mea, like the engine pull was).

[ronaldmcdonald]

Tough to get rid of the car with a bad motor for 10k. If it were in the 7 range id take it in a heart beat. I really want to tinker with a motor that needs a new chain and get the proper tools to do it myself. It would be a great DIY for the community.

Trust me, I know how hard it is to unload a car without a running motor for 10k. But I'm not gonna give the car away just yet. I really feel that It's a great deal for someone that can do the engine swap themselves and partout/repair the old motor. I just need to find that person.

Joey, I'd very much like to donate the engine or dig into the failure for the good of the community. A timing chain DIY would be very popular I'm sure. It all depends what that ebay auction ends at.

They diagnosed that sound as a HG failure?

Yes, But I think they diagnosed the misfires as a HG failure. I thought it was fairly obvious that it was caused by timing chain issues.

[drew]

How much are you into the car? If someone is offering you cash, it may be better to just let it go and move on.

[ronaldmcdonald]

The car is in 'running' order. I took those videos last night. I think I owe the dealer about $100 for the diagnostics. Other than that I don't have anything invested in fixing the car. I don't owe anything on the car, so yes, I'm trying to let it go rather than fix it.

[BCsniper]

What faults did you get when they did diagnostic at the dealer?

You may get lucky and you can just repair bank1 or 2 and not have to pull the engine to do the repairs. If so then it would definitely be a good buy for somebody to do those repairs, and also possibly make it easier to sell, being that it won't need the engine to come out.

[BCsniper]

Tough to get rid of the car with a bad motor for 10k.

Think one's worth 10 if the motor (timing components) hasn't gone bad?

That's where I'm going to be asking at when I sell mine here in the next few weeks. I know I could sell it to a yocal here in town, and not say anything about the motor, but I'm going to be completely upfront that it will need major work in the near future.

[BOOTNEY]

23 hours to pull down so your looking at 46 hours plus labor and parts so ill say between 4k and 5k to pull down and put back up not including parts.