Engine Issues - Timing Chain?

[ronaldmcdonald]

Hey Guys - sorry for the bummer first thread. I figured if anyone can help its the crew from

I was driving along the other day and my car (2005 B6 S4 64k miles) suddenly started shaking. Lots of driveline vibration. The CEL came on and started flashing. It seemed real bad. It seemed to be rougher at lower RPM (idle). It appeared to get smoother as it reved slightly higher (2k - 2.5K). I didn't take it any higher for fear of massive explosions. Subsequently the car takes about fifteen seconds to start. I've never noticed any rattle at startup, but I suppose it could be there and i just don't know what to listen for. The car has 64k miles, I've had it for the last 22k of which I've had only minor issues (starter, replaced MAF sensor). I've done oil changes every 5k, before that they were done at 5,15,24,32,and 38. Like I said I didn't notice any symptoms of an issue prior to this happening. This happened in the middle of a fifteen minute drive across town at about 20mph. It happened as I shifted from 1st to second at about 2.5k. Also my low fuel light came on about five minutes earlier, but i suspect that's unrelated.

I got it to a local shop where they looked at it today. The tech says he's pretty sure its a busted timing chain tensioner. He said he got zero compression on cylinder 8. He did have a spark on the plug. He read codes but i don't have them. He said the next step would be to remove the valve cover form one side and see if everything (valves) lines up properly. He roughly estimated worse case 45 hours to do the whole job plus 2-3k for parts depending on what he finds. He's done fine work for me before on my front brakes and new starter, but I'm not confident he can handle the engine pull and timing work.

I decided to have it towed to an audi dealer in the next town over. They will start looking at it tomorrow. I'm hoping they have another theory.

I'd like to pretend I understand everything that's going on and what I've read. But honestly its a bit overwhelming. I don't have alot of details at this point, but I'll update this thread as I find out more.

UPDATE#1 posted below. 1/12/2011

UPDATE#2 tech's notes posted below. 1/18/2011

UPDATE#3 short videos posted below. 1/25/2011

-This is not intended to raise fear about everyone's car randomly imploding. My appologies.

[steveo4s4]

Sounds like what happened to me 2 years ago. Broken guides/tensioner. Hope it's not but sounds very similiar.

Edit: My motor had to be pulled, cost almost $7k.

[Naudi04]

He said the next step would be to remove the valve cover form one side and see if everything (valves) lines up properly. He roughly estimated worse case 45 hours to do the whole job plus 2-3k for parts depending on what he finds. He's done fine work for me before on my front brakes and new starter, but I'm not confident he can handle the engine pull and timing work.

Uh yeah, hopefully the dealership gives you a better quote. That sounds outrageous...

[ronaldmcdonald]

Uh yeah, hopefully the dealership gives you a better quote. That sounds outrageous...

I agree. From what I've gathered searching AZ I should expect about $2k in parts. Does anyone know how many hours an average engine pull and timing chain service would be at a dealer?

[steveo4s4]

taken from my writeup on az when I had my issues:


all said and done they want $6,826.18... said it takes about 30 hrs in labor for the whole process...and it's 6826 as an estimate, as long as there's no other internal damage to the motor, then of course it goes up from there

keep in mind that was for broken guides, hopefully it's just the cam position sensor. that's supposed to be cheaper.

[sakimano]

someone needs to make more robust guides. The plastic ones seem a little disappointing.

[steveo4s4]

^^^ agreed. bad design

[ronaldmcdonald]

Update...
Got a call from the dealer. Audi master guild tech diagnosed the problem as blown head gaskets on at least one side, possibly both banks. He said there were exhaust gases in the coolant (or coolant in the engine oil, I forgot which). He also said that he suspected one of the piston heads would need some machining as well. I asked what they think caused this, they don't know and hope to find the answer when they tear into it. They do warranty their engine work for 12 mo/12k miles if i decide to go that route. I've got two main concerns, The first being that they tear into it and discover the engine is FUBAR and I need a new one. My second concern is that they repair the head gaskets and then it happens again because they don't know what caused it, which wouldn't be covered by their guaranty.

As it sits, I need to decide to authorize 40hrs labor and 1k of parts for about $5500 total. This is just a starting point.

Few questions for you guys.
1. What's my car worth without a motor, (or with a motor that needs serious work)? Is there a market for the rest of the car without parting it out? It's in good condition otherwise. I'm seriously considering cutting my losses and cashing out. $5k? 7k? 10k?
2. Any idea what causes blown head gaskets? I didn't see it in Justin's catastrophic engine failure thread, unless it's covered by other issues.
3. What else needs to be done while the engine is out? I think I'd replace most of the timing system. I need to ask if they would install a JHM clutch/LW flywheel.

Thanks for the help.

[mbgt72]

^ I'm seriously sorry to hear that, and I know it scares everyone else a bit as well. I'll let some more knowledgeable people chime in about the questions to help though.

[Joey]

Sorry to hear that, terrible thing to go through.

Has anyone else heard of the head gaskets blowing on these motors? I don't think i remember reading about a single instance of this. Not sure about this tech's diagnosis.

40 hours to do that job? I know it will take a decent amount of time, but that seems a little much. I would think 20-25 sounds more realistic. If i can pull a motor in 4.5 hours by myself on jack stands i think a dealer should be able to do that a little bit faster. Say 5 hours for them pull and reinstall, leaving 10-15 hours to take the timing apart and pull the heads.

[halik]

Sorry to hear that, terrible thing to go through.

Has anyone else heard of the head gaskets blowing on these motors? I don't think i remember reading about a single instance of this. Not sure about this tech's diagnosis.

40 hours to do that job? I know it will take a decent amount of time, but that seems a little much. I would think 20-25 sounds more realistic. If i can pull a motor in 4.5 hours by myself on jack stands i think a dealer should be able to do that a little bit faster. Say 5 hours for them pull and reinstall, leaving 10-15 hours to take the timing apart and pull the heads.

I will bet my lunch money the head gasket has nothing to do with that and they're seeing frothing in the oil from failed #8 (exhaust and gasoline mixing in the oil).

The headgasket is two metal layers, about no freaking way it will fail on an NA motor.

There's a guy selling a good used motor for $2900 over at audizine, I'd grab that and spend 400 bucks on new tensioners and guides.

I've gotta say 4.5 is a bit aggressive on yanking the motor, there's a lot of crap in the way.

[beemercer]

never heard of a HG going either

[AndyGs4]

If i can pull a motor in 4.5 hours by myself on jack stands i think a dealer should be able to do that a little bit faster

Fuck, you wanna fly your ass out to Utah and give me a hand?

At 4.5 hours, I feel like I was just getting started.

[Joey]

Fuck, you wanna fly your ass out to Utah and give me a hand?

At 4.5 hours, I feel like I was just getting started.

Buy me a ticket and feed me. I'll come lend a hand

[Type_Audi]

You know you mentioned that everything was perfect, then car suddenly started having issues. Also taking into account the fact that you were under light load at around 2.5k rpm, those are not the situations under which a head gasket will blow.

When it does blow, what comes out of the tailpipe won't look pretty, did you notice any strange smoke coming out the back? Was is psycho cold that morning in Iowa?

Something seems fishy about that diagnosis. The Audi tech said the other side "might" also have a head gasket issue? Did they give you compression numbers on that side?

[fastbreak88]

Just curious if anyone knows JHM's dealings with this issue. has their 04 135k track car ever had an issue, or did they ever toss on new guides, chains, cam variators while they had the engine out for headers/clutch work?

I bought a late production 04 with 98k recently but am not the least bit worried about this issue. Just curious what Jay or any of his minions have run into before?

Sorry for slighty off topic hijack. Good luck with your issue and keep us posted with updates ronaldmcdonald.

[halik]

Fuck, you wanna fly your ass out to Utah and give me a hand?

At 4.5 hours, I feel like I was just getting started.

Second, I probably had the bumper off, coolant draining and about 4.5 beers in me.

[steveo4s4]

Buy me a ticket and feed me. I'll come lend a hand

This offer stand for future occurences? lol.

[Joey]

This offer stand for future occurences? lol.

Yeah sure. I don't mind coming to visit and help out friends.

[beemercer]

Buy me a ticket and feed me. I'll come lend a hand

I'd come too, banana suit and all.

Just curious if anyone knows JHM's dealings with this issue. has their 04 135k track car ever had an issue, or did they ever toss on new guides, chains, cam variators while they had the engine out for headers/clutch work?

Jay bought a second wrecked B6 as a parts car and took the motor out of that. I believe Jay just keeps swapping them back and forth as they blow them to test the limits of the blower/spray/turbo kit. I know one of them is going to get built to run the blower at 15psi+.

[Vee8s4]

People keep saying that there's nothing fragile about these motors...but I constantly see issues with these tensioners/guides. They are prone to early failure.

Oil changes seemed to have been kept up with on the OPs car. WTF...

[ronaldmcdonald]

There's a guy selling a good used motor for $2900 over at audizine, I'd grab that and spend 400 bucks on new tensioners and guides.

Thanks for the heads up. I've contacted them and shokan about new engines.

You know you mentioned that everything was perfect, then car suddenly started having issues. Also taking into account the fact that you were under light load at around 2.5k rpm, those are not the situations under which a head gasket will blow.

When it does blow, what comes out of the tailpipe won't look pretty, did you notice any strange smoke coming out the back? Was is psycho cold that morning in Iowa?

Something seems fishy about that diagnosis. The Audi tech said the other side "might" also have a head gasket issue? Did they give you compression numbers on that side?

I didn't notice any large plumes of smoke of any certain color. It was cold that day, +10F. It was about 20 minutes into a trip around town, the engine was relatively warm. I don't have compression numbers yet, but its on my list of things to ask for. The first mechanic said he had zero compression on cylinder 8.

People keep saying that there's nothing fragile about these motors...but I constantly see issues with these tensioners/guides. They are prone to early failure.

Oil changes seemed to have been kept up with on the OPs car. WTF...

I don't know how the car was driven the first 42k miles. But since i had relatively few issues and I've seen the maintenance records i would guess it wasn't abused too much by the first two owners.

In a weak moment tonight I posted the car for sale on AZ. I need to explore all my options. So far all that's come out of it is lots of trade offers for shitty cars. Which is what I expected.
http://www.audizine.com/classifieds/...t-offer&cat=68

I'll post another update on saturday after I get the tech's diagnosis in writing. and talk to the service manager again.

It sounds like the group is pretty skeptical of the HG theory. I appreciate all the help.

[littleredwagen]

It sounds like the group is pretty skeptical of the HG theory. I appreciate all the help.

while it might be skeptical, and unlikely it still could happen. If Joey can pull a motor in 4.5, and I have pulled one with a buddy in about 3 hours. A dealer that has a lift and drops the the engine/trans/suspension/subframe easily could be done within 3-4.5 hrs. However dealers bill by book time not actual time. so you will pay labor that doesn't happen. The way the industry works

[blkonblks4]

Second, I probably had the bumper off, coolant draining and about 4.5 beers in me.

HAHA, I like your style.

[jdmnomore]

(noob question warning) a bad coil pack wouldnt cause a loss in compression would it? I dont know I agree with everyone who says a bad head gasket sounds pretty far fetched. OP sorry to hear about your troubles hope this gets sorted out for you quickly.

[littleredwagen]

(noob question warning) a bad coil pack wouldnt cause a loss in compression would it? I dont know I agree with everyone who says a bad head gasket sounds pretty far fetched. OP sorry to hear about your troubles hope this gets sorted out for you quickly.

no it would not, it does not effect cylinder seal

[Joey]

no it would not, it does not effect cylinder seal

x2

[halik]

HAHA, I like your style.

It's a marathon, not a sprint ...

[halik]

(noob question warning) a bad coil pack wouldnt cause a loss in compression would it? I dont know I agree with everyone who says a bad head gasket sounds pretty far fetched. OP sorry to hear about your troubles hope this gets sorted out for you quickly.

There are some theories that continuous misfires can cause cylinder scoring (gas washes away the oil film from the wall), but I would suspect that's BS. Aside from injectors staying open, I don't think the miniscule amount of gas mist per cycle would have substantial impact on the oil coating of the walls.

[BCsniper]

It's sad that this cases just keep coming up over and over again.

The one other V8 S4 in my town just had it's timing stuff go bad. I knew the previous owner......he sold it right before shit hit the fan. He told me the new owner is spending $3800 for the engine pull alone.

My car will also most likely be right behind it. I have more miles then he did when his went, altho I've noticed it seems TIP cars seem to make it a little longer.

Right now I'm also doing the same debate of trying to sell the car as one piece or parting it all out.

[jdmnomore]

siighhh... I really want to keep my S4 but with all of these horrible stories im tempted to unload it and just grab a low mileage e46. I just cant justify spending 5 grand for Audis stupid F' up. /End Rant

[ronaldmcdonald]

UPDATE#2 1/18/2010

Hey Guys - So it's been one week without my car. Life's slightly better now that I'm borrowing a Jeep Wrangler and have regained my freedom to come and go as I please. But every highway mile in the Jeep makes me miss my S4.

These are the tech's notes. I don't expect they will be too helpful, But I wanted to post them here for future use by the rest of you guys.

I'm still sorting through offers to fix, sell, or part out my car. I'm leaning towards fixing it with the motor referenced above and then selling it in the near future. Any reason a 2004 motor wouldn't work in a 2005?

Notes from the tech:
VERIFIED VEHICLE RUNNING VERY ROUGH AND DOES NOT STAY RUNNING WITH CHECK
ENGINE LIGHT FLASHING. CHECKED ALL SYSTEMS FOR FAULTS. FOUND 6 FAULTS IN THE
ENGINE CONTROL MODULE. INTAKE AIR TEMP CIRCUIT HIGH INPUT SPORADIC P0113,
RANDOM CYLINDER MISFIRE P0300, CYLINDER 1 MISFIRE P0301, CYLINDER 2 MISFIRE
P0302, CYLINDER 6 MISFIRE P0306, AND CYLINDER 8 MISFIRE P0308. COULD NOT
KEEP ENGINE RUNNING LONG ENOUGH TO CHECK FOR CURRENT CYLINDER MISFIRES.
REMOVED SPARK PLUGS AND FOUND AFTERMARKET PLUGS INSTALLED AND FOULED WITH
FUEL. REPLACED SPARK PLUGS WITH FACTORY PLUGS. SWAPPED IGNITION COILS FROM
BANK 1 TO BANK 2. STARTED VEHICLE AND FOUND ENGINE STILL MISFIRING BADLY.
WAS ABLE TO CHECK CURRENT MISFIRES AND FOUND CYLINDERS 6, 7 AND 8 HAVE
CONSTANT MISFIRES AND ALL OTHER CYLINDERS MISFIRING RANDOMLY. REMOVED SPARK
PLUGS OF CYILNDERS 6, 7 AND 8 AND INSPECTED CYLINDERS WITH A BOROSCOPE.
FOUND IN ALL 3 CYLINDERS, A TRAIL OF LIQUID RUNNING DOWN THE CYLINDER WALLS.
SUPPLIED PRESSURE TO COOLING SYSTEM. RECHECKED CYLINDERS AND FOUND IN
CYLINDER 8 THE HEAD GASKET IS DRIPPING COOLANT INTO THE CYLINDER. LET
VEHICLE SIT FOR ABOUT 30 MINUTES WITH PRESSURE ON THE COOLING SYSTEM AND
RECHECKED CYLINDERS. FOUND COOLANT HAD FORMED ON TOP OF ALL 3 PISTONS FROM
THE HEAD GASKET. WILL NEED TO REMOVE THE CYLINDER HEAD TO PERFORM FURTHER
DIAGNOSIS AND INSPECTION OF CYLINDER HEAD. #18

[beemercer]

^would you look at that... keep us updated

[halik]

Wow thanks for the update, have not seen that before.

[SpeedETC]

^^ x2. That is very interesting... Definitely keep us updated...

[Joey]

Interesting to say the least. Keep us updated. Let me know if you are still on the fence about selling as is.

[theeld]

Out of curiosity, who has been doing the diagnostic on your car?? I know we are both in Cedar Rapids. Carousel in Iowa City?? European motors in CR?

[Type_Audi]

ronaldmcdonald,

Out of curiosity, did you ever have the sweet smell of an oil/coolant burn mix coming into your cabin at stoplights prior to the failure?

When oil/water mixes, you can smell it a mile away.

I'm worried about my car having a head gasket issue. When I did the valve cover gaskets a while back I found lots of milkshake in the valve cover breather hoses. I know this isn't the combusion chamber but worries me nonetheless. (See pics in post below).

Valve cover breather hose milkshake

[ronaldmcdonald]

Out of curiosity, who has been doing the diagnostic on your car?? I know we are both in Cedar Rapids. Carousel in Iowa City?? European motors in CR?

I'm trying to keep that relatively private. I don't need people calling the shop and asking them about my car. All the info I have gotten from them is posted here. You got PM. edit: you got PM on AZ cause I can't do it here.

ronaldmcdonald,

Out of curiosity, did you ever have the sweet smell of an oil/coolant burn mix coming into your cabin at stoplights prior to the failure?

When oil/water mixes, you can smell it a mile away.

I'm worried about my car having a head gasket issue. When I did the valve cover gaskets a while back I found lots of milkshake in the valve cover breather hoses. I know this isn't the combusion chamber but worries me nonetheless. (See pics in post below).

Valve cover breather hose milkshake

I did not notice that smell, or any odd smells for that matter. I didn't do valve cover gaskets so I can't comment on what you saw. Sorry - I'm not much help.

[Mr.Corey]

Man that's a real bummer about your car. Seems strange to see a head gasket issue. Head gaskets going are usually because the car had been over heating and even if it was leaking you should be able to drive it. The car would leave white clouds of smoke at start up or when you really hammered on it.