Ramblings about EPL and JHM...

[sakimano]

If you decide on the JHM exhaust and like the progress JHM is making with their shop RS4 then the JHM tune is a no brainer. It is calibrated to support all the modifications they are performing. You're in a good position to go that route because you have not yet started modifying your car. The rest of us have already dished out serious coin on other setups and that is where a custom tune is a better choice.
Several RS4's will be headed up to EPL this spring for custom tunes... again if you live near CT you should join us and benefit from that visit (especially if you get the Milltek).

help me understand this...the JHM tune is now only calibrated for their 2.75" exhaust? and because you guys bought stock-replica exhausts (Milltek, Tubi, Capristo et al at 2.5 per RS4 stock) you (and cristov) would be better off with a 'custom tune' from EPL?

First up...what's a custom tune? You think you're going to drive up there...hop on the dyno, and have a guy whip you up a great tune on the spot, while 5-6 of your buddies are waiting? That's rich.

The ECU adapts...and a JHM flashed RS4 with 2.5" exhaust will also adapt. It's not calibrated to only work with JHM exhaust. That's just flat misinformation. There have been a couple of great results on RS4s with 2.5" exhaust and the JHM tune. One of the test cars had stock downpipes, Milltek catback and JHM tune, and it would walk the piss out of any 'EPL custom tuned' car. It's torque plot from VCDS was posted on this site. Go have a look.

[RS4POWER]

help me understand this...the JHM tune is now only calibrated for their 2.75" exhaust? and because you guys bought stock-replica exhausts (Milltek, Tubi, Capristo et al at 2.5 per RS4 stock) you (and cristov) would be better off with a 'custom tune' from EPL?

First up...what's a custom tune? You think you're going to drive up there...hop on the dyno, and have a guy whip you up a great tune on the spot, while 5-6 of your buddies are waiting? That's rich.

The ECU adapts...and a JHM flashed RS4 with 2.5" exhaust will also adapt. It's not calibrated to only work with JHM exhaust. That's just flat misinformation. There have been a couple of great results on RS4s with 2.5" exhaust and the JHM tune. One of the test cars had stock downpipes, Milltek catback and JHM tune, and it would walk the piss out of any 'EPL custom tuned' car. It's torque plot from VCDS was posted on this site. Go have a look.

Since you insist on sticking your nose in on a platform you know little about let me help you.

a)I don't know what the JHM tune is calibrated to do (you should know best since you suck farts out of their ass) but I would sure hope it supports their modifications. If I recall correctly you were among the guys that said a V8 tune will give you nothing without the train of supporting mods (dp's etc)

b) If you spoke to JHM (I have and this is from Dan's mouth) you would know that the RS4 DP's are 2.5" and the catback is 2.3".
Further more there have been several cases where an exhaust will lose you power (this has been well documented here and overseas) and the only way those cars reclaimed their power was via custom tune. Please spare me the talk about vacuum lines not being plugged.

I know for a fact that since I installed my capristo the car is suffering on the low end. I can go on forever as to why and what has been observed during testing but one thing remains and that is no cookie cutter tune can support the specific modifications I have done to my car.


c)A custom tune (by a reputable source), is the only way you should go if possible... will monitor your cars behavior on dyno, street and track if possible. ELP is willing to work with us and put in the time in any environment and they are very flexible with the pricing. They can better monitor each cars a/f ratio, cylinder pressure, timing, etc etc.
If its rich or not.. its not your pocket.. we know where your money will go. Good for you.

The ECU adapts differently to each setup. Some exhaust setups contribute to performance, some are a detriment. Some will trade you top end for low end (my case). So yes it adapts but not necessarily for the good.

I am not sure what world you live in but until JHM actually does walk the piss out of any tuned RS 4 I wouldn't talk. And by that I mean tune for tune only(or with identical mods). Not the train of other mods to go with JHM and an EPL RS 4 with just AWE exhaust. If they do shit all over EPL/Others, good for them.

I do not need to look at any plots/logs. I was offering advice to the new member based on my experience with a platform I actually own.
If he decides to go JHM then he should get their tune to support the mods. If not, he should look at a tune calibrated specifically to his car's behavior.

Of course you are nothing more than a JHM bully so I don't expect you to say anything good about anyone else.

[sakimano]

that's a classic response. You haven't addressed any of the facts, and glossed over the real truth with insults...all while sharing mis-information about the RS4 and JHM's products. Your car has mufflers on it. That's it. Why again should you be the oracle of performance? Information I'm sharing is information from people who have made performance mods to their RS4, and are getting real performance. I'm not sure why you buying an RS4 makes you more fit to speak about performance formulas. You've got mufflers and have never tested your car, other than your logs (lol). Nuff said.

Go read what you originally wrote again...that the JHM tune is calibrated for their parts (i.e. their parts only) and that those with other parts should consider a 'custom tune'. That's your opinion...but it's horribly flawed. You're right that it's your cash, and I am not here to stop you from wasting your money. I love watching that. You paying $2000 for mufflers and mufflers alone lets everyone know what your performance acumen is all about. You then use it as an excuse to not get any real performance parts. I know your performance model is flawed, and that makes me smile. I just don't think it's so responsible of you to spread BS to other folks, especially those new to the platform.

I'd love to see a JHM tuned car race an EPL tuned car. The thing is a ton of guys have gone to the dragstrip with their RS4 and various levels of mods (including EPL cars...REVO, APR, GIAC + various exhausts). They all ran BESTS of 13.0-13.5, including your boyfriend the internet tough guy.

Most of the RS4 guys who go run embarrassing times...realise their parts have added zero performance...and never tell a soul. Or they resort to the classic 'this car isn't made for the dragstrip'...or 'the dragstrip is a lot harder than it looks'. Maybe their performance mod choices just suck?

The JHM cars with various mods have run 12.4-12.6. Various mods mean anything from Dan's full 2.75 catless setup to a bone stock car + beta tune that ran 12.6 vs 13.0 on the stock tune. We only get info for the JHM cars because it's not embarrassing. See the difference? Here's a typical RS4 quarter mile run at the same track where my S4 with catback and tune ran 13.2

[ame]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WykVOcQhgUQ[/ame]

[RS4POWER]

First off let me congratulate you on turning the Euro addiction RS 4 section in to a necroforum. You single handedly crushed all the time and effort Joey and Dave put in to this forum. Them stripping you of your moderation badge only intensified your lack of tact good to see.

Said that let me again enlighten you.

Capristo is not just mufflers, it is a catback. If you search the rs4 capristo on youtube you will see how the fabricate their mufflers and the thorough R&D to get the most performance out of it. I will repeat... the exhaust traded power on the low end for the top. Regarding you comment about my money... know this.. while your driving around in drone and having a worthless exhaust after 2 years mine will look and sound as good as new. It will still be very much desired and will return a decent portion of what I paid for it. Keep laughing.

That is where EPL or another reputable tuner (kurt also) can come in and sort things out. They can also surveil the same fields your boy above does and extract the most out of each specific car.
Give up your logs joke, that b5 video was funny for five minutes. I have done extensive testing and funny enough they all back up the "logs". Funny how quattro GmbH utilizes "logs" to fine tune their car around the ring.

I stand by what I said. If you want to extract the most out of your car you have to calibrate the ecu to your car's specific modification. JHM does that (as they should) with their parts. Will the tune work with other setups? yes? Will it give you the outmost performance... better than someone custom tailoring the tune to your car? NO.
You can also be bullied around by the JHM hooligans which will make fun of your for buying anything else. I would like to see what a JHM tune do to a stock car. \

You mean you didn't see the JHM RS4 walk the piss out of the EPL? Hmm
I have not seen any EPL cars run the drag strip. However, their lap times were significantly better than a stock car. Again you probably know best.

As far as your fixation with Mick.. let me set something straight. His wife is a 10+ and wouldn't even glance at assholes like yourself.

[sakimano]

I stand by what I said. If you want to extract the most out of your car you have to calibrate the ecu to your car's specific modification. JHM does that (as they should) with their parts. Will the tune work with other setups? yes? Will it give you the outmost performance... better than someone custom tailoring the tune to your car? NO.
You can also be bullied around by the JHM hooligans which will make fun of your for buying anything else. I would like to see what a JHM tune do to a stock car. \

You mean you didn't see the JHM RS4 walk the piss out of the EPL? Hmm
I have not seen any EPL cars run the drag strip. However, their lap times were significantly better than a stock car. Again you probably know best.

As far as your fixation with Mick.. let me set something straight. His wife is a 10+ and wouldn't even glance at assholes like yourself.

keep talking my man...it shows what you don't know.

also please note - this JHM hooligan bullied nobody about buying JHM parts...rather I first pointed out your misinformation (which you still haven't addressed). If you think you're going to outsmart the ECUs and get a 'custom dyno tune'...you should buy some swampland from a friend of mine in Florida...or buy a B5 and get EPL to sell you some Tials and a dyno sheet for that as well.

p.s. why will my Fast Intentions exhaust be worthless? It makes me faster...sounds fantastic, and will be worth plenty on the aftermarket were I to sell it (which I won't). That comment made no sense.

[sakimano]

JHM setup and tune may put down more power and torque, but we haven't seen it yet. All we have seen is the 12.4 at the track, which is very good, but also had a few other things like the LWFW, stage 3 or 4 clutch, and LW wheels. They need to dyno it soon and show us what they are throwing down to make an accurate comparison, but I am sure tehy will be in the same ballpark or maybe even a bit better than the EPL/AMD setup. All I know is those two setups, the EPL/AMD and the JHM, are pretty much in a class of their own. Plus they are the ones that really seem to do custom mappings to optimize your setup best.

Don't listen to the noise here and the JHM fanboi who can't see the trees through the forest. he has been run out of every forum around and de-moderated here because he can't speak objectively, makes stuff up and basically wastes peoples time. Like scouring the internet to post a picture of me and tell everyone how gay I look.

1. I don't think they 'need' to dyno anything. Why would they start needing to dyno now, in 2011? They test and prove the parts...and customers do too. You'll learn soon that the dyno game is just that...a game. It's a game with no rules, so some tuners avoid it.

2. I didn't 'scour' the internet to post a picture to show how gay you look...I googled your name after you threatened me. Very simple Mick...when you talk shit on the internet and threaten physical violence, you'd better be ready to back it up. One look at your pic made that quite clear...you're not. When I offered to fly out to see you in person and give you your best shot, you cowered like a little chicken...and threatened to call the police. The moral of that story was Don't act like an internet tough guy. Since you STFU right away, and haven't been acting all tough since then, I think perhaps you were embarrassed and have learned your lesson.

Don't call my integrity or word into question though...show me one thing I made up and I'll be happy to address it. The fact is my fault is that I'm brutally honest. You should know this by now.

[NY07RS4]

You paying $2000 for mufflers and mufflers alone lets everyone know what your performance acumen is all about.

Even though you were aiming this taunt at RS4POWER (and were completely wrong about what he had actually purchased for his RS4) you do realize you are lumping pretty much any other person who has ever purchased a high end/expensive exhaust component into the receiving end of your attempted insult? Sounds kind of ingnorant, no? Why make a blanket statement you know can be easily argued and shot down? How can you feel confident making a statement based soley on your personal assumptions when all you talk about is "facts"? Did you ever stop to think there might be a group of folks who choose no longer to share in depth information that possibly counters your opinions, assumptions or chosen path simply because it becomes a pointless pissing match with no positive end result? You ever stop and think that just maybe, there are a handful of folks that actually have more than a basic understanding of how a performance vehicle is built? Maybe they even have a background in the industry but unlike others don't constantly reference it and expect the rest of the forum to take every word they spew as gospel? A person(s) can state something a million times, it doesn't make it a bit more true or factual with each iteration.

*For all the those who are about to jump on the bandwagon and come to JHM's defense and preech - relax. I'm a JHM fan, I own some JHM parts. I plan to purchase more JHM parts. There, it's out of the way now.

Now of course there will be those that jump in here and say things like "well if it weren't for Sak calling out these bullshitters then all these poor newbs would be misled." What a piss poor way to actually try and have a meaningful discussion from different sides of the argument.

The assumptions regarding the JHM tune vs. the EPL tune race outcome - the assumption of the R&D put forth for the EPL tune - the asumption that the majority of the RS4's that have gone to the track are too embarassed to post their times???? Bro where the fuck do you get off? How silly is this shit? It is becoming an absloute waste of time to read through these threads due to the amount of unecessary bullshit that spills into fuck'n intro posts of all things!

RS4POWER shared his thoughts and opinions plain and simple. Then you came in and attempted to call him out but misquoted him repeatedly. Don't take what he said out of context, complete the sentence he provided - he CLEARLY stated and I quote "If you decide on the JHM exhaust and like the progress JHM is making with their shop RS4 then the JHM tune is a no brainer. It is calibrated to support all the modifications they are performing. Right there in fucking plain sight! For once, own up and admit you have some weird vendetta against any one who offers an "option" to JHM. That last sentence sting a bit? Remind you of anyone? That's what its like to be on the receiving end of your posts at times. I assumed you have a vendetta and I'm calling you out on it as if I'm somehow in the know of what your actually thinking....sounds fucking retarded doesn't it!!??

I could go on and take my time and go line by line pointing out all of the shit I feel you misrepresented...but what's the point? There's none from where I stand.


Reality is you have no clue what the majority of folks "performance acumen" actually is. You are trying in this case to set a precedent based on a single purchase. Weak. You could use the argument that based on the history and content of what one person has posted on here and other forums led you to a conclusion as to what their understsanding of a particular topic is...still not even close to what reality may be for that individual.

You can't constantly demand fact from the masses and then expect the masses to accept any and all info that comes from you without backing it up. Assumptions aren't fact. Opinions aren't fact. Having 10 clowns back you up in an e-thug manner doesn't mae your argument fact. Being popular on a website does not equate to everything you state as being fact.

Feel free to counter each statement I made. I won't take the time to acknowledge anything negative. Again what's the point?

My rant probably seems like a personal attack, it's not. I don't know you personally, I only know the words you type on a website. If you spoke these words to me in person I'd have the same response to you as I type here. I'd like to think you are a better person than you portray yourself to be on this forum but you seem to consistantly bash those who don't agree with your way of thinking. To each his own.

This constant tension or pressure to follow the popular way of thinking of a few outspoken members is a turn off. It prevents any type of growth. It will (in my opinion) cause the forum to become or remain stagnent. At the end of the day who want's to deal with the bullshit for sharing their thoughts or opinions or in some cases fact only to have a small mob of ethugs try and convince the masses that the person is crazy or dumb or doesn't know what their talking about? Not me, that I'm sure of.

And seriously, the whole "gay" name calling thing? Seriously? How old are you? Old enough to know that if someone on the receiving end of that insult wanted to make your life suck a whole lot, you just handed them the ammo to.

[mickf29]

1. I don't think they 'need' to dyno anything. Why would they start needing to dyno now, in 2011? They test and prove the parts...and customers do too. You'll learn soon that the dyno game is just that...a game. It's a game with no rules, so some tuners avoid it.

2. I didn't 'scour' the internet to post a picture to show how gay you look...I googled your name after you threatened me. Very simple Mick...when you talk shit on the internet and threaten physical violence, you'd better be ready to back it up. One look at your pic made that quite clear...you're not. When I offered to fly out to see you in person and give you your best shot, you cowered like a little chicken...and threatened to call the police. The moral of that story was Don't act like an internet tough guy. Since you STFU right away, and haven't been acting all tough since then, I think perhaps you were embarrassed and have learned your lesson.

Don't call my integrity or word into question though...show me one thing I made up and I'll be happy to address it. The fact is my fault is that I'm brutally honest. You should know this by now.

No need to respond to this poster any longer.

[DaveD]

One thing we decided from the beginning was that we wont delete posts from EA unless members ask it to be done so I have moved the BS out of the welcome thread to here, feel free to edit posts and we can delete if you would like it removed. Thanks guys!

PS - posting pics of other members without their permission is not accepted here.

[Jay]

PS - posting pics of other members without their permission is not accepted here.

You mean that whole week I spent stalking sakimano and taking pics of him was all a waste now?

I'll post banana pics then ...

[Extremesport3]

No one has addressed how many whp a cool JHM sticker will give over a nice EPL sticker...

RS4 guys, do your thing.... if you want an EPL tune go for it.... i know EPL is a pretty good shop and have had success in the past with many cars, as has JHM.... there is no need to make claims that one is better than the other. They offer similar products that may offer different gains. I am sure both shops are up front with their clients....

Bottom line - good luck with your decisions whether its EPL or other...

John

[originalspanksta]

This constant tension or pressure to follow the popular way of thinking of a few outspoken members is a turn off. It prevents any type of growth. It will (in my opinion) cause the forum to become or remain stagnent.

Rep'd. Thank you.

[91gl]

Isnt Kryptonik getting all JHM has to offer for his RS4? Im sure he'll be down to do some pulls against these newly tuned EPL cars. I would love to meet up for this, only thing i doubt ill have my car back in time but ill bring my gti and my camera along, i promise you all, that little thing will shock you

as for this discussion though, ill try to stay out of it as much as possible since RS4 owners think that someone that doesnt own an RS4, doesnt have any knowledge of the platform. BUT, just to warn you all, this is all typical EPL/ASP bull shit and i had to laugh when i first saw this argument. Tony invites you guys up there claiming he can dyno tune you all for your specific setups, does a baseline on the dyno and then performs the "tune". Then dynos after and viola you have a shit load more power, but little did you know is that he did more "tuning" to the dyno, rather than to your car. You are then left driving the car and TRYING to feel the difference and TRYING to justify the money you spent on that garbage. It was the same shit in the b5 world, EPL dyno days and the only cars to break 400 whp where the EPL tuned cars but then the cars would lay an egg come time to do some pulls or 1/4 mile runs. Thats how they sell products. I have a buddy's S2 replica sitting right in my garage that was EPL tuned with full Autronic standalone and a k26/27 hybrid turbo that SHOULD be putting around 360-380 whp on a off the shelf chip tune but the owner before heard so much about EPL and their history with 5 cylinder that he took the car there and put down 330, sold the car to my friend and he can barely pull 260 whp and couldnt pull away from my mk6 the other day. Or if anyone remember that kid wearing a VAST t-shirt at H20 pimping EPL and wearing the shirt only trying to claim he "had a vast tune and the EPL tune is much better" at the Audi GTG only to race a VAST k04 B5 in his EPL k04 car and get walked on so hard they started the second race with the VAST car in third and he in second and the outcome still being the same.

So its up to you guys but im not in here to promote any JHM products, i could care less on what tune you buy, im just in here trying to inform you on who EPL really is. Id much rather run an honest APR, GIAC, REVO let alone JHM over EPL.

[duud40@rbn]

This is feeling like audizine. Damn people there`s only so much you can do with the rs4.
Big things to ask for when getting a tune : No speed limiter, no torque limitere in first gears, no cels because of secondary o2 sensors.
12.5 afr is good enough for catless or cat-ed .... The car will keep to 12.5 afr at wot under most conditions (+100hp worth of dry nitrous anyone ?)
Timing changes will only give you so much.
Right now the difference between a better and the best tune is max 5-10 hp.
You`re all grasping at straws. As long as you don`t have limiters and the car is set for max performance, playing with afr and timing away from stock doesn`t give you too much. It`s an edge but you`re counting pennies.
When getting a tune ask for what it does (speed limiter, cel and torque limtier) and then look at afr and timing. Stock engines won`t let you run much more timing than 35 degrees advance. That`s close to ideal on 12.5:1 compression ratio and our cam profiles (ie dynamic compression ratio) anyway so why go with more timing?
Playing with afr isn`t as obvious as with normal injection engines.

[silverRS4]

I concur. Spoken like someone who as actually spent time tuning an RS4. Thanks Duud.

Additionally, if a tuner has a big banner in their shop that says "Leaner is Meaner", keep walking. The extra few percentage points of fuel under load is critical in the extremely knock-sensitive RS4.

[WinterRunner]

This is feeling like audizine. Damn people there`s only so much you can do with the rs4.
Big things to ask for when getting a tune : No speed limiter, no torque limitere in first gears, no cels because of secondary o2 sensors.
12.5 afr is good enough for catless or cat-ed .... The car will keep to 12.5 afr at wot under most conditions (+100hp worth of dry nitrous anyone ?)
Timing changes will only give you so much.
Right now the difference between a better and the best tune is max 5-10 hp.
You`re all grasping at straws. As long as you don`t have limiters and the car is set for max performance, playing with afr and timing away from stock doesn`t give you too much. It`s an edge but you`re counting pennies.
When getting a tune ask for what it does (speed limiter, cel and torque limtier) and then look at afr and timing. Stock engines won`t let you run much more timing than 35 degrees advance. That`s close to ideal on 12.5:1 compression ratio and our cam profiles (ie dynamic compression ratio) anyway so why go with more timing?
Playing with afr isn`t as obvious as with normal injection engines.

Great info Dudd, always know your shizz!

[duud40@rbn]

The workings of the rs4 engine are not magic. It resembles a motocross engine mostly. (valve geometry , revs, forces involved) . In my opinion the problem is fsi and injector spray pattern. The mixture might not get to combust in totality so 12.5 afr seen by lambda probe in exhaust stream could be XX.X in the combustion chamber.
People with 2l tfsi running rs4 injectors have been known to get funky afr readings.
We have the same heads but obviously the rs4 injectors as stock.