Eurocode Long Tube Headers

[JEmm]

Saw this on another forum and thought I would xpost it. Claiming 30+ whp gains.

.:.

.:EuroCode Tuning:. Presenting our long tube headers for the B8 S4 3.0T
After many months of research and deisign, EuroCode Tuning is proud to introduce our long tube headers for the B8 Audi S4 3.0T.

Our long tube headers feature the following:

* Designed and manufactured in California
* Nearly equal length on all three runners per side, tuned for optimal torque and horsepower gain (over nine revisions perfecting the horsepower and torque gains)
* Full T-304 stainless steel construction
* Laser CNC cut head and exhaust flanges
* CNC cut three into one, precision slip fit collectors
* Mandrel bends
* Fully tig welded
* Direct Bolt on to the left hand drive B8 3.0T S4
* Perfect fitment with both the factory and all cat back exhaust systems
* Absolutely, positively no cutting or welding required for installation (O2 sensor bungs would need to be added to factory downpipes, we are currently developing a downpipe with a HFC)


Of course, EuroCode Tuning would never offer a product to our customers without first testing it on our own in-house S4, here are the findings.

Dyno Data

EuroCode Tuning Long Tube Headers (only mod) vs 100% stock S4 (same day, same dyno) 30.2 WHP gain/23.2 WTQ gain (with noticeable horsepower/torque gains throughout the entire RPM range)





Pricing

MSRP $2395.00

Production

Each set of our long tube headers is hand made in California, please allow eight to ten business days from when your order is placed until shipment.

Legal

We are offering these as an "off-road use" only product as it is typically not legal to modify any emissions component on your S4. EuroCode Tuning does not endorse this product for use on any highway or roadway and please check with your local laws and regulations regarding the modification of your vehicle.

Installation

We have found that the installation of this product is fairly straightforward, any competent Audi technician should be able to perform the work in about eight to ten hours)




If you would like more information regarding our equal length long tube headers, please feel free to give us a call at 310-294-8108

.:.

They claim later in the thread that there will be intro pricing soon as well.

[beemercer]

I wonder if the dyno results were with/out cats?

[Joey]

Nearly equal length

Brian, does this have a significant impact or should i say is there better performance out of a true equal length headers vs a "Nearly equal length"

Also, what is the difference in firing pattern on the V6 vs the V8? Does one gain more performance over the other?

[mbgt72]

Interesting. Much better design then the GMG shorty headers. I just don't see those offering much of a gain. But these look much nicer.

I was also wondering the same Brian, catless vs not may be a bit of difference.

Also, is engine pull required for install on the B8? If so that'd be bustin some ass to do dyno runs, pull the motor and then reinstall to do the same day! Best case scenario the dyno from above is using cats on both runs and the temps were close to the same when run. I looked for time stamps on the dyno but didn't see any.

[JEmm]

No cats. Headers delete the cats.

And Joey, they say they had 9 revisions before and these were the best. I wonder if they ever did have a perfectly equal set up at one point and this actually out performed that...

[Joey]

No cats. Headers delete the cats.

And Joey, they say they had 9 revisions before and these were the best. I wonder if they ever did have a perfectly equal set up at one point and this actually out performed that...

I think you will maximize performance with equal length. A very simple reason they are no equal length may be they couldn't get the bends to work with the room in the engine bay / equal bends while still being able to install them properly to the block ( no obstruction to manifold bolts).

[JEmm]

I think you will maximize performance with equal length. A very simple reason they are no equal length may be they couldn't get the bends to work with the room in the engine bay / equal bends while still being able to install them properly to the block ( no obstruction to manifold bolts).

I thought about that, my only problem with that argument is that in many of the pictures it looks like they have some room to maneuver with. It looks like they could have made it work (but obviously I'm not looking at the bay making the bends so I can't know for sure). I asked in the op, I'll xpost what they say regarding that.

[JEmm]

Well Joey you were basically right.

"There is only so much room to work with in the engine bay, we designed the headers in a fashion to allow any cat back exhaust system to bolt up to them, or you can also bolt up any back half exhaust system and retain the factory downpipes."

Not as much not enough room in the bay, just want to allow cat backs to bolt up without any problems.

[Joey]

Hmmm... Interesting... Thanks for looking into that Jeff, i appreciate it.

I'm curious to see how well these things work

[JEmm]

Hmmm... Interesting... Thanks for looking into that Jeff, i appreciate it.

I'm curious to see how well these things work

No problem. I'm interested to see how they sound... They said they're going to be doing a lot of testing with different aftermarket exhausts. Back to back dynos and such. Looking forward to seeing how it turns out.

[beemercer]

I like to call them less than equal length. Typically it's less of a concern than you're lead to believe with a cross-V8.. the bigger concern is with flat-V8's and obviously 4 cylinders since they are half a flat-V8. I'm on my phone now so I can't be much more in-depth, but I suspect the V6 will be even less sensitive than the V8 since there may not be the collector crowding. I'll look into it after work.

[justin]

good stuff jeff!

[sakimano]

fuck...they have headers after 1 year. Took us 5 years for JHM to step up.

anyway, they're catless...and claiming 30whp?

what about catless stock downpipes? I imagine you'd pick up 10-15whp with that alone. All in all, seems like a really expensive alternative to de-catting your stock exhaust. Time will tell I guess.

[jdmnomore]

fuck...they have headers after 1 year. Took us 5 years for JHM to step up.

anyway, they're catless...and claiming 30whp?

what about catless stock downpipes? I imagine you'd pick up 10-15whp with that alone. All in all, seems like a really expensive alternative to de-catting your stock exhaust. Time will tell I guess.

I feel the same way about the headers for our cars. I think it makes more sense to do such a thing with a more expensive car like the B8 so I think headers are a good development. Interested to hear how they sound as well.

[JEmm]

good stuff jeff!

thought I deserved one of those... haha

fuck...they have headers after 1 year. Took us 5 years for JHM to step up.

anyway, they're catless...and claiming 30whp?

what about catless stock downpipes? I imagine you'd pick up 10-15whp with that alone. All in all, seems like a really expensive alternative to de-catting your stock exhaust. Time will tell I guess.

Apparently GMG is almost done with headers as well... I'm pretty sure 034 and others claim 15-20 whp with their test pipes.

Anyone also notice that what they call down pipes in the B8 community are more like mid pipes? I mean, they start after the cat so I guess they are technically dp's but they're in like the middle of the car...

[Joey]

Jeff,

Are those dyno numbers JUST with downpipes? Are there any other modifications on at the time that these tests were done (full exhaust, tune, intake, etc)?

[sakimano]

thought I deserved one of those... haha



Apparently GMG is almost done with headers as well... I'm pretty sure 034 and others claim 15-20 whp with their test pipes.

Anyone also notice that what they call down pipes in the B8 community are more like mid pipes? I mean, they start after the cat so I guess they are technically dp's but they're in like the middle of the car...

yeah, but GMG design is awful. Short tubes...and they have the cat welded into them. Engine pull for cat fail? Yikes.

[sakimano]

I feel the same way about the headers for our cars. I think it makes more sense to do such a thing with a more expensive car like the B8 so I think headers are a good development. Interested to hear how they sound as well.

headers cost $2500 and yield 40whp/60wtq on the 4.2...that's pretty awesome I think. That's just about what the Eaton M90 supercharger delivers, thereabouts. That's $9,000 from VF or PES. Of course you need catback and a tune on the headers car for another $1000-1500, but still, pretty awesome mod for the money. AND THE SOUND!

All around the progression/cost seems worthwhile on our tough to mod platform...but these B8 GMG short tube headers or EC non equal length headers $2000+ cost or so for less gains than a tune will deliver makes it a pretty tough sell.

Anyone know anything about the B8 S4 exhaust system?

i.e. stock headers to downpipes/midpipes/catback including the cats.

What are the diameters of the piping?
Any awful crimps?
What is the header design (stock)...can't see under that cover?
What is the cat setup like?

These questions should all be addressed I guess before I speculate on gains from exhaust part swaps.

[DaveD]

This is my favorite part of the design:

[JEmm]

Jeff,

Are those dyno numbers JUST with downpipes? Are there any other modifications on at the time that these tests were done (full exhaust, tune, intake, etc)?

Dynos were with just headers.

yeah, but GMG design is awful. Short tubes...and they have the cat welded into them. Engine pull for cat fail? Yikes.

Fair enough. I never looked into GMG's design, just knew it was available.

All around the progression/cost seems worthwhile on our tough to mod platform...but these B8 GMG short tube headers or EC non equal length headers $2000+ cost or so for less gains than a tune will deliver makes it a pretty tough sell.

Anyone know anything about the B8 S4 exhaust system?

i.e. stock headers to downpipes/midpipes/catback including the cats.

IMO still not bad gains from what really is just an exhaust piece. Not as much as you got from the 4.2 but are headers as important on a fi v6 as they are on a n/a v8? And I think if they did a dyno back to back with a car that has tune/cat back exhaust the gains could be even better.

If it was my car, I would wait for someone else to come out with headers, maybe pm/call around and see who else is developing. Just wait and see if anyone is coming out with true equal length headers and see what kind of gains THEY get from that set up.

It's stock headers, cats, downpipes, rest of the exhaust.

[sakimano]

IMO still not bad gains from what really is just an exhaust piece. Not as much as you got from the 4.2 but are headers as important on a fi v6 as they are on a n/a v8? And I think if they did a dyno back to back with a car that has tune/cat back exhaust the gains could be even better.

If it was my car, I would wait for someone else to come out with headers, maybe pm/call around and see who else is developing. Just wait and see if anyone is coming out with true equal length headers and see what kind of gains THEY get from that set up.

It's stock headers, cats, downpipes, rest of the exhaust.

Oh I agree, not bad gains at all. You just have to decide...do you want 'not bad gains' for $2500 + $1500 engine pull job? Or do you want epic gains. That will likely be about 35-50% of the cost of upgrading to a TVS1650 supercharger...which could yield upwards of 100whp, if not more.

As for the suitability/impact of headers on a V6T vs. V8 NA, I really have no idea. Getting technical there....need beemercer. Send out the ninja signal!

[beemercer]

This is my favorite part of the design:

I think that swept back portion is probably for clearance. They really jammed that motor in there to improve the weight balance. It's not like the headers on my A6 where there is a good amount of room around the motor.

IMO still not bad gains from what really is just an exhaust piece. Not as much as you got from the 4.2 but are headers as important on a fi v6 as they are on a n/a v8? And I think if they did a dyno back to back with a car that has tune/cat back exhaust the gains could be even better.

If it was my car, I would wait for someone else to come out with headers, maybe pm/call around and see who else is developing. Just wait and see if anyone is coming out with true equal length headers and see what kind of gains THEY get from that set up.

It's stock headers, cats, downpipes, rest of the exhaust.

Oh I agree, not bad gains at all. You just have to decide...do you want 'not bad gains' for $2500 + $1500 engine pull job? Or do you want epic gains. That will likely be about 35-50% of the cost of upgrading to a TVS1650 supercharger...which could yield upwards of 100whp, if not more.

As for the suitability/impact of headers on a V6T vs. V8 NA, I really have no idea. Getting technical there....need beemercer. Send out the ninja signal!

lol, ninja signal. I'm about to start a lab so this is gonna be quick. Supercharged cars still exhibit scavenging effects in the same way N/A motors do. Proper header design will enhance this effect and produce a broader and taller powerband.

[DaveD]

I think that swept back portion is probably for clearance. They really jammed that motor in there to improve the weight balance. It's not like the headers on my A6 where there is a good amount of room around the motor.

Yea, I was actually referring to how it is not one solid piece. This may come in handy when a simple job like changing the clutch comes into play.

[AndyGs4]

I like to call them less than equal length. Typically it's less of a concern than you're lead to believe with a cross-V8.. the bigger concern is with flat-V8's and obviously 4 cylinders since they are half a flat-V8. I'm on my phone now so I can't be much more in-depth, but I suspect the V6 will be even less sensitive than the V8 since there may not be the collector crowding. I'll look into it after work.

V6s are in fact much less sensitive to 'equal length' or even 'long' vs 'short' tubes.

Perhaps if you have a V6 that is pushing 10K+ RPM, it may become relevant.

[beemercer]

Yea, I was actually referring to how it is not one solid piece. This may come in handy when a simple job like changing the clutch comes into play.

oh I see. they may do spring clamps on the collector, but a lot of time it gets welded on. they probably left it slip fit for testing.

[beemercer]

V6s are in fact much less sensitive to 'equal length' or even 'long' vs 'short' tubes.

Perhaps if you have a V6 that is pushing 10K+ RPM, it may become relevant.

Figured, the firing events are 120* apart though there are back to back firings in each bank at the end of the firing cycle.... the spacing should help keep the collector clear

[DuncanC]

Are there? I think the firing on a V6 is perfectly even... My understanding is that they sound so crappy and produce such smooth power since as one is 60 degrees away from being finished its power stroke the next is just starting its. So the flywheel always has power applied to it.

And if the cylinders were:
1 2
3 4
5 6

They fire 1 - 4 - 5 - 6 - 3- 2. So at no point does one bank have two fire sequentially as in a cross plane V8.

I know headers don't make a huge difference on a V6 but since the timing is even I'd see there being an advantage to equal length headers as that we you can ensure only one pulse is reaching the collector at a time.

If 5 fires and has a longer tube than 3 maybe the pulse hasn't cleared the collector before the pulse from 3 gets to it? To me it seems at very high flow rates there would be a considerable difference.

[JEmm]

Oh I agree, not bad gains at all. You just have to decide...do you want 'not bad gains' for $2500 + $1500 engine pull job? Or do you want epic gains. That will likely be about 35-50% of the cost of upgrading to a TVS1650 supercharger...which could yield upwards of 100whp, if not more.

As for the suitability/impact of headers on a V6T vs. V8 NA, I really have no idea. Getting technical there....need beemercer. Send out the ninja signal!

Are we sure you need to do a full pull to install these? And I have a feeling if one is going to go through the trouble of getting a new sc, custom tune for it (at least for now), etc... the $2500 (or $4000 assuming $1500 pull) for headers isn't really an issue cost wise for them.

[AndyGs4]

^^Looking at how tight they are wrapping the headers around the motor (likely to avoid contact with the firewall), It would be a safe assumption that the engine would at least have to be lowered.

[drew]

headers look pretty good.

i am not a fan of that shop though. the owner used to be a big time knuckle head. see some of the posts on AZ from 2004-2005.

maybe he finaly grew up though....

[Joey]

This is my favorite part of the design:

Those are most likely welded on the inside of the slip. JHM's first version of the headers had the exact same thing . Welding in various spots is the only way to make an equal length headers because of all of the bends. Imagine trying to bend that piping like that with one consistent tube?

I believe Brian is right though, it was for test fitting purposes and they just left it like that. No big deal since its welded.

[DaveD]

^Good to know, thanks guys

[beemercer]

Are there? I think the firing on a V6 is perfectly even... My understanding is that they sound so crappy and produce such smooth power since as one is 60 degrees away from being finished its power stroke the next is just starting its. So the flywheel always has power applied to it.

And if the cylinders were:
1 2
3 4
5 6

They fire 1 - 4 - 5 - 6 - 3- 2. So at no point does one bank have two fire sequentially as in a cross plane V8.

I know headers don't make a huge difference on a V6 but since the timing is even I'd see there being an advantage to equal length headers as that we you can ensure only one pulse is reaching the collector at a time.

If 5 fires and has a longer tube than 3 maybe the pulse hasn't cleared the collector before the pulse from 3 gets to it? To me it seems at very high flow rates there would be a considerable difference.

shit I was counting the cylinders audi style..

1_4
2_5
3_6

been too busy recently to think

[JEmm]

UPDATE!

http://www.audizine.com/forum/showth...ination-122WHP!!!!!!

Apparently, headers + APR race file = 122 whp

[beemercer]

So 21whp/19wtq from the headers on a tuned car running 91 octane.

[sakimano]

UPDATE!

http://www.audizine.com/forum/showth...ination-122WHP!!!!!!

Apparently, headers + APR race file = 122 whp

WAIT A SECOND!

don't forget...they dyno'd something like 305whp stock. So...again with the pumped up dynos (and pumped up delta). Most folks dyno 285 stock when not selling a product. So they're almost 8% higher than 'normal'. By 'normal' I refer to the half dozen or so customer dynos, all of which were 276-292whp.

Then we look deeper...they're not adding 122 peak whp. They're adding that at one spot on the curve...which is at 7000rpm after the stock tune bleeds boost off for 2000rpm. Kind of a loaded method of reporting 'gains'.

stock peak = 305whp
100tune+fullexhaust (headers+) = 386whp

So it added 81whp. Since that's pumped up by about 7-8%, it's really delta of about 75whp. The 93 tune + exhaust delivers about 55whp on a 'normal' dyno. So the headers add about 20?

p.s. Ironically, 386whp is what Richib86 dyno'd with APR93+Fast Intentions catback

[Mike@Ringer-Racing.com]

Not sure why you would decrease their whp gains by 7-8% just because they made that much more stock. If you run a car on a dyno and see a gain when changing mods then that is the gains you get, this is the reason for running the car on the same dyno every time. Gains made on a dyno dont change because it reads higher then another dyno, just means the peak numbers will be lower when running on a lower reading dyno.

As for your question about how much power the headers add, just look at their dyno plots showing a change from stock headers to their headers when using the exact same tune. If you compare their first dyno chart for APR 91 tune with stock header and the 2nd dyno charge of APR tune with long tube header you can see the actual gains of the headers. I told them they need to make a dyno plot of those 2 runs, problem is that they cant since they dyno software will only allow them to plot 2 runs that were made at the same time.

Those 2 runs, just guessing at what the peak numbers are since they are not listed on the dyno chart.
APR 91 tune stock headers = 338hp and 328tq
APR 91 tune long tube headers = 358 and 342tq

So yes it looks to be around 20hp peak, but peak numbers are not all that need to be looked at since you dont just drive the car at peak.

The very first dyno is a good one to see the gains by the headers, stock vs stock with long tube headers. Sooner tq/hp curve making the power band wider, very nice tq gains between 3k-5k and hp gains up to 6800 rpm.

Was very much looking forward to test driving that car at the track today, damn rain.

[sakimano]

Not sure why you would decrease their whp gains by 7-8% just because they made that much more stock.

very simple...I wrote it in my reply. I was showing what I thought folks would experience on a 'normal' dyno. For context.

What if the eurocode dyno was calibrated to the point that it said the car made 397whp stock at redline and 579whp with a tune + headers on 100 at redline. Should they start threads that say '182WHP GAINED!'. And should we expect those GAINS when we run our own tuned car on a private, independant dyno? Those numbers are 150% of the Eurocode reported numbers...and their original reported numbers are about 7-8% higher than the grand majority of people's dyno experiences have been.

Again, context. Trying to give people a grounded look at the numbers. I predicted the B8 with tune + catback would dyno around 340whp and would run around 12.6@113mph. APR showed dyno #s of 370whp. Then they showed a 386whp dyno tuned+FI catback. When the customers dyno them on an uncorrected dyno (like most dynojets or mustangs) they'll dyno around 335-340whp. Same rationale. We'll see I guess.

If you run a car on a dyno and see a gain when changing mods then that is the gains you get, this is the reason for running the car on the same dyno every time. Gains made on a dyno dont change because it reads higher then another dyno, just means the peak numbers will be lower when running on a lower reading dyno.

no, the gains will also change. The percentage will be similar, but again, look at the post I quoted from JEMM. He posted the WHP/WTQ gains, not the percentage delta. Look at my absurd example above. The same percentage gains on a poorly calibrated dyno show 180whp delta...that's just nowhere near what actually happened...and what actually happened is a little higher than most people's experience when.

THe B8 world has been plagued with poorly presented dyno information from day one with people applying traditional B5 S4 drivetrain losses to modern cars on modern dynos calibrated quite a bit differently to the ones the B5 guys dyno'd on back in the day. It's just frankly frustrating. It's funny almost.


I was looking forward to seeing a nicely sorted 6 speed run at the strip too. Hopefully you guys get out somewhere else (or someone does).

[Mike@Ringer-Racing.com]

Ok if you didnt' know this but the dyno Eurocode ran on is not their dyno, they dont actually own a dyno. They take their car to a dyno shop just like you would or anyone else would including myself, so they are just a customer paying someone to run on their dyno.

Those numbers are 150% of the Eurocode reported numbers...and their original reported numbers are about 7-8% higher than the grand majority of people's dyno experiences have been.

7-8% higher because that dyno they are running on reads higher, doesn't mean the actual gains made for the mods are going to change much or change at all. Just means the peak numbers will be 7-8% lower with the same mods just like it would have done 100% stock. But hey I guess we will see when there are others posting dyno charts with the exact same mods on lower reading dynos'.

As for their "whp gained" they are in fact stating those gains are at a set rpm not "peak" gains. At least they are stating that fact. Look at exhaust companies, they always make power gain claims which are never at peak hp/tq, just end up being the spot they were able to make the largest gain over the whole rpm range.

Now if they were stating that the mods will make XXX chp then I could see the problem, but the gains for the customer shold be just about the same as what Eurocode shows on the dyno. If that then that would in fact be false advertising.

p.s. Ironically, 386whp is what Richib86 dyno'd with APR93+Fast Intentions catback

So are you pointing out that is the APR car and as you stated in your last post that was done on a high reading dyno with what seems to be SAE corrections. But hey as we know, a car at sea level is going to have a higher uncorrected reading then lets say a car in CO. But the sad part is that if a FI car in CO uses a SAE correction it will end up looking like it makes more whp then the sea level car when using a SAE correction. Which is exactly why I never use SAE corrections for my car or any FI car I take to the dyno. Other reason is that the SAE correction only raises the dyno plot, it doesn't slide the power in either direction of the rpm and that will change with the DA change.

THe B8 world has been plagued with poorly presented dyno information from day one with people applying traditional B5 S4 drivetrain losses to modern cars on modern dynos calibrated quite a bit differently to the ones the B5 guys dyno'd on back in the day. It's just frankly frustrating. It's funny almost.

But what does that exactly have to do with WHP dyno charts? I can see if people are stating chp numbers by using a DL %. Is the DL of a B8 S4 quattro 6 speed different then lets say the DL % of a B5/B6/B7 S4/RS4 quattro 6 speed?

[sakimano]

^^^mike...I think we're on the same page as far as the numbers etc. go.

Just to clarify as was the case when I raised questions about APR dynoing 322WHP stock back in 2009...it's perceived as me 'having a go' at EuroCode for showing big numbers here. Absolutely not. I'm just trying to give the numbers some context because just as happened back in 2009, folks started quoted APR's numbers as if it was the norm, when in reality no car has dyno'd those numbers since then.

My reference to the DTL fiasco was simply because just as happened in B8 world back then where people applied bad logic to the APR stock dyno, people will also apply bad logic to these numbers shown by eurocode. The B8 world has seen this happen a few times in it's short history.