1/4 Mile Times

[voltrons_head]

Hey Guys,
I'm going to the track tonight with a group of guys with a diverse group of cars. Once I get back I'll post up the times and hopefully some good video. I'd love to get the B8 section of this forum going as there is a lot of nonsense elsewhere. The big question as it pertains to the B8 is how fast is a stage 2 B8? My car has AWE exhaust, Strat intake, and the APR tune. It is also, dsg which should make it a bit heavier as well as 20" wheels.

As for the other cars there will be a few stock B8's, modded CTS-v, 335i JB3, and possibly a turbo 911.

Let the speculation begin. I'll post the results here first when I get back tonight.

[voltrons_head]

AWE may even show up with their project car. This isn't confirmed but I was contacted by them about making it and it might be a good surprise.

[Silver B6 S4]

Have you been to the track before with your B8?

12.7@112. I got $10 you can't beat the 12.7.


Good luck, and have fun!

[beemercer]

Yeah, experience is gonna make more difference than mod list (not necessarily the OP, I just mean in general). For anyone who's never gone a 13.0 is a good mark to aim for.

[voltrons_head]

Yeah I've been a few times. I wouldn't consider myself a track dog but I have enough of the basics down that over a few runs we should get a good idea.

Last time I was at the track I ran a 13.2 with 1/2 tank of gas but it was over 100 degrees outside and the track temp was listed at 167. This was at Englishtown and we're going to Atco this time. It will also be in the low 60's high 50's tonight so we'll see.

[Charlescrs6]

12.6 is my guess. Good luck!

[voltrons_head]

12.6 is my guess. Good luck!

That's about what I was thinking.

[sakimano]

11s all day and smoking C6 Z06s, Stage III B5s, E92 M3s by 5 cars and 911 C4S!

P.S. you guys should call youtube to come down and film it

[voltrons_head]

LOL. Hopefully after tonight there will be some actual times out there so some of that stuff will stop.

[voltrons_head]

I did smoke a Veyron the other day though.

[sakimano]

Have you been to the track before with your B8?

12.7@112. I got $10 you can't beat the 12.7.


Good luck, and have fun!

My prediction for good times was 12.6@113

I posted that on Audiworld and got attacked as a hater

My rationale was simple...I compared to the best all motor B6/7 S4 time

12.7@112mph by JayBQuick

JayBQuick vs. APR B8
320 whp vs. 335 whp
310 wtq vs. 310wtq
3850lb car vs. 3950lb car
good V8 curve vs. awesome SC curve
Audi torque sensing AWD 60:40 rear biased vs. Audi torque sensing AWD 60:40 rear biased
not good gearing vs. ??? (depends MT6 vs. DSG)

So we have a very similar set of circumstances here...I just don't know the gearing. The B6 is lighter...the B8 has more power and a better curve. Should all around make it real close. I gave a 1 tenth and 1 mph edge to the B8 which has to overcome a bunch of weight.

While this is for the average APR 93 tuned + exhaust + intake B8 S4, I imagine we'll have some guys running 100 octane and dropping some weight out of the cars to go quicker.

p.s. you guys should take your spare out and all the shit you can like your golf clubs etc. Also go with 1/4 tank or less gas. As I also posted in the other thread, just take the first run as a shakedown run...just get the feel for it. Some of you guys won't have raced with a helmet on and 800hp hot rods doing 140 decibel burnouts right behind you etc. You're bound to fuck up. Also , don't worry about the tree. let it go green, take your time, then go. No bracket racing here so just have fun., Wait 3 seconds after it lights up if you want. Timer doesn't start till you cross the staging zone (12 inches). That's another thing...make sure you don't DEEP stage. Just barely get into the staging zone and stop. They'll show you hopefully. This is noob shit, but not sure if any of you guys have gone before.

"What's staging?"

[voltrons_head]

you guys should call youtube to come down and film it

Google CEO Eric Schmidt will be there to do the filming in person.

[voltrons_head]

I'll do the basics like the spare tire though I have a bit too much gas in the car. I plan on leaving a little early just to burn through some of it. I took note of yours and PT's other posts but I didn't want to use race gas yet. Next time.

[Arin@APR]

JayBQuick vs. APR B8
320 whp vs. 335 whp
310 wtq vs. 310wtq
3850lb car vs. 3950lb car
good V8 curve vs. awesome SC curve

While this is for the average APR 93 tuned + exhaust + intake B8 S4

335 whp and 310 wtq for a B8 S4 with APR 93, Exhaust and Intake? Maybe I read that wrong but that's a fairly low estimate. With those mods you could see up to 380 awhp and 355 awtq. At least, that's close to what I've seen. :-)

[sakimano]

335 whp and 310 wtq for a B8 S4 with APR 93, Exhaust and Intake? Maybe I read that wrong but that's a fairly low estimate. With those mods you could see up to 380 awhp and 355 awtq. At least, that's close to what I've seen. :-)

sorry Arin...I mean on a normal dyno, not your 11% higher reading than normal dyno. The APR dyno is kinda useless for comparing to other cars that dyno'd elsewhere. Avg. B8 S4 uncorrected dyno #s stock are around 285whp (275 - 295) from guys who are fully independant and have no horses in the race. You guys dyno'd around 315whp...i.e. 11% higher than the median.

Claiming 380 WHP with a tune and catback without the disclaimer that it's on APR's dyno, and is corrected might be misunderstood by 99% of us who are used to regular dynos. i.e. NWS4 guy dyno'd 275. Lou dyno'd 292. There are a few others, all in the 285 range. This is what happened when you guys launched "322 WHP STOCK!" all over the internet...which led to everyone applying 25% drivetrain loss and birthing the myth that the B8 is a 420hp supercar sleeper, underrated by 90hp. As we've found over the past with independant dynos that's just not the case. Again, this is not to say APR misled folks...rather it would be a bit more clear if everyone had a better understanding of just how you achieved those numbers.

Anyway, if you want to use your 380 WHP number using corrected #s achieved on APR's dyno, inflate the 034 motorsports land and sea dyno numbers jay ran by 11%. Now you're at : 355whp/344wtq vs. 380whp/355wtq. Correct jay's numbers...he's pushing closer to 365whp/355wtq vs. 380 whp/355wtq. OK?

Now where are those god damn timeslips!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Some guy posted at 730 that he had already run. That was 3 hrs. ago and still no numbers.

[sakimano]

I'll do the basics like the spare tire though I have a bit too much gas in the car. I plan on leaving a little early just to burn through some of it. I took note of yours and PT's other posts but I didn't want to use race gas yet. Next time.

skip the race gas...just go on 93.

[voltrons_head]

Sorry for the delay. Driving home now but things didn't go well. See AZ for now. Will post more when I get home.

[sakimano]

heard the tranny threw a big 1-2 shift lag monkey wrench at you. No worries...get it figured out for next time. I'm sure Keith and Arin will straighten it out.

edit: here's V's post on AZ

Things didn't go well. In the way home now but a few people were no shows including my cameraman so the little video I do have is shitty.

Best run by a b8 was hyper @ 12.95. It was a stock tune b8 6 MT. My best time was 13.13. Also ran a 13.262. After that I asked hyper to try out to make sure it wasn't me. He ran a 13.268 but had a 60' of 1.99. I wasn't able to crack into the 1's. Best I had was 2.052 60'.

335i jb3 had a best run of 12.8.

The big dogs were killing it. The ctsv ran 11.8 I believe and the awe 700hp 911 was even faster. As you can tell I lost all passion for the event after the first run.

Hyper stated that my car pulls much harder than his and we were left not sure what happened. Ill post more later as I am in a gas station parkingblot right now.

hyperM3 drove voltron's car and found that the 1-2 shift was awful....DSG would lag by like half a second. I guess there's something wrong.

hyperM3 drove his stock + catback B8 S4 down the track in 12.95@108 though...awesome result.

[voltrons_head]

Sorry for the delay. Last night was much later than I expected. I'm not really sure what to make at this point from last night. After my first two runs I was convinced that it I was the problem. Once Hyper drove my car (he's been modding and racing cars for 15+ years) and had the same result I felt better and worse at the same. It was good that I wasn't the problem but it would have been easier to resolve if the problem was me and I just needed to keep at it.

I have a dyno run scheduled for next week so I'll know a lot more then. Don't have vagcom so I can't log any data.


Hyper's run in my car

[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P8OxsqZbxGk"]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P8OxsqZbxGk[/ame]



This is the shift from first to second that Hyper mentioned. It doesn't happen often but I don't normally drive around in dynamic with the nanny settings disabled. It happened enough tonight that i was able to duplicate it on the way home for this video. Have no idea what type of effect this would have on the time.

Out of 4 attempts with varying settings to capture this on video it happened once. The run that it happened in had the ESP on and was in dynamic mode.

All of my runs at the track had ESP off and were in dynamic.

This isn't the best example but is representative of what happens even though this attempt is sedated a bit. Notice it go ~300 rpm's or so past redline. Then 2nd to 3rd shifts at 6900 or so.

[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IXx0TVqnyDI"]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IXx0TVqnyDI[/ame]


Time slip vs ~09 mustang gt with some work to it. This guy had been chatting with his boys in line and I could tell had some things to say about my car and how he would have done against me. This was the last run so it felt good to at least surprise this guy and beat him.

[voltrons_head]

I'm really looking forward to the replies over here as the average technical knowledge level on this forum seems to be the highest of the group.

[voltrons_head]

BTW, so far this is what we know.

stock - 13.2-13.3
mtm - 13.2-13.3 - Dyno comfirmed that we shouldn't have expected more
apr - 13.1-13.2

While prime has seen 12.8 during his stock configuration i've never seen anything that good. I was hoping that I would see ~12.6 after the tune. To get to that number I was factoring in the fact that it was 45 degrees cooler last night than any of my previous runs and the concensus is that Atco is a bit faster. This left me hoping that the APR tune would cut 3/10 or so off the qtr. Thought this was a reasonable assumption. Was it not?

[voltrons_head]

Lastly, I said this on AZ and wanted to say it here to.

I want to give props to those who have been doing this for years. It's frustrating, emotionally draining, and humbling when these things don't work out the way you hope.

[voltrons_head]

Anyone notice that the guy who raced hyper ran a 12.2 at 87 mph and won the race? WTF?

[cory_can]

Anyone notice that the guy who raced hyper ran a 12.2 at 87 mph and won the race? WTF?

have a look at his partners 1/8 mile speed.....almost 100mph......the car jumped out to a huge lead and obviously shut it down (or had a mechanical) well short of the line.....my guess is that it's probably a low to mid 11 sec. car.

[voltrons_head]

have a look at his partners 1/8 mile speed.....almost 100mph......the car jumped out to a huge lead and obviously shut it down (or had a mechanical) well short of the line.....my guess is that it's probably a low to mid 11 sec. car.

Ah ok. Makes sense now.

[voltrons_head]

Dealership confirmed that my dsg software was updated in March with my 5K service.

But I have the first software rev to fix the problems with dsg. Ver. 6. There was another rev released immediately after. Ver. 7 of course.

Bulletin # 2022599/1

Problems listed - Fixes hesitation when upshifting or downshifting during spirited driving. Also, fixes adaptation shift points. Customer may experience shifting at incorrect rpm's.

Solution is to readapt shift points and reflash dsg to ver. 7.

How about that?

Now that we've seen that what do we think about the rest?

[sakimano]

I have no idea what to say V. I'm speechless. The 2.0 60 foot is kinda meh...not terrible not good. The other numbers are like good stock numbers. I do know that in the video of you driving on the highway, it didn't seem a big deal that tranny problem...but when hyper ran your car and you can see it run, it hesitated for like 3/4 of a second! Something really wrong. How many runs did you guys get? I'd like to have seen a shake down run...just an easy first run. See if anything weird happened. Did you try to shift manually on any of the runs? Does your 2nd gear suck like ours (ours is too long...so short shifting first would KILL us, but if you short shift first at say 6300-6400 I wonder if that would bypass this whole problem.

Anyone notice that the guy who raced hyper ran a 12.2 at 87 mph and won the race? WTF?

that 12.2@87mph guy was a firebird with a big nitrous shot. I asked hyper about that on AW. Check the 1/8th mph...almost 100! That's a deep 11 second car.

Also guys...this should shake the B8 S4 world up a bit...PRIMETIME ran today too. 100 octane APR tune + STRAT intake. DSG transmission, stock 19" wheels.

1.7915 60ft
5.2327 330ft
8.0115 1/8 mile
89.23 1/8 mph
10.3905 1000 foot et
12.3875 1/4 time
114.81 mph

[ame]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1vnnyl9AS-8[/ame]

[ame]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ygu8c_LNhfc[/ame]


For reference, he ran 12.81 stock...and 12.67 with his tune which was messed up...and now 12.38 with a working tune. So the tune + 100 octane have shaved 4 tenths off. Pretty much EXACTLY what we thought when we saw the APR tuned vs. stock pulls vids where the gap of about 4 cars up to 120 mph was built. (at those speeds, a car length = a tenth)

[primetime]

Thanks again Sak.... Was going to post over here as well but was tired and had things to do last night....

Really happy with the car to this point... Can't wait to get the exhaust on and back to the track for some 12.2x's at 115+

[JEmm]

^plan on doing test pipes as well or sticking with stock cats for now?

[beemercer]

^^should just piggie the stockers, fuck buying test pipes just punch 'em out

[primetime]

^plan on doing test pipes as well or sticking with stock cats for now?

Probably highflow cats... I have heard you have to yank the motor so I am up in the air... I will have the car on a lift this week so will get a good look for myself...

[StratJohn]

^^should just piggie the stockers, fuck buying test pipes just punch 'em out

no way to get at the substrate while they are on the car - can't remove them to get at them without dropping the motor. BUmmer. also gives you an idea of how much restriction they offer.

[Arin@APR]

sorry Arin...I mean on a normal dyno, not your 11% higher reading than normal dyno. The APR dyno is kinda useless for comparing to other cars that dyno'd elsewhere. Avg. B8 S4 uncorrected dyno #s stock are around 285whp (275 - 295) from guys who are fully independant and have no horses in the race. You guys dyno'd around 315whp...i.e. 11% higher than the median.

Claiming 380 WHP with a tune and catback without the disclaimer that it's on APR's dyno, and is corrected might be misunderstood by 99% of us who are used to regular dynos. i.e. NWS4 guy dyno'd 275. Lou dyno'd 292. There are a few others, all in the 285 range. This is what happened when you guys launched "322 WHP STOCK!" all over the internet...which led to everyone applying 25% drivetrain loss and birthing the myth that the B8 is a 420hp supercar sleeper, underrated by 90hp. As we've found over the past with independant dynos that's just not the case. Again, this is not to say APR misled folks...rather it would be a bit more clear if everyone had a better understanding of just how you achieved those numbers.

Anyway, if you want to use your 380 WHP number using corrected #s achieved on APR's dyno, inflate the 034 motorsports land and sea dyno numbers jay ran by 11%. Now you're at : 355whp/344wtq vs. 380whp/355wtq. Correct jay's numbers...he's pushing closer to 365whp/355wtq vs. 380 whp/355wtq. OK?

Now where are those god damn timeslips!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Some guy posted at 730 that he had already run. That was 3 hrs. ago and still no numbers.

How many of these other dynos are being operated correctly. Are the runs only a few seconds? If they are on loaded dynos, are they running long sweep times to represent the same amount of time it takes to do a pass on the dyno as it does on the street? That will change the results on a supercharged car with the way boost builds and the way the ECU handles it. A 12 second sweep will be different than a 21 second sweep. Also, are you comparing 6MT's to DSG's. They seem to have different drivetrain losses. Also, if our dyno reads 11% higher, why do RS4 stock dynos line up with everything else out there? Why do other cars line up just fine as well?

I think it has to do with running a sophisticated car with a sophisticated ECU with a sophisticated AWD and ESP system on a loaded dyno with proper sweep times compared to just blasting it through the run on an innertia dyno or loaded dyno in less time.


[edit]Also, for what it's worth, I'm not arguing, saying I'm right or wrong or anything like that... just pointing out a few things I've noticed. :-)

[beemercer]

no way to get at the substrate while they are on the car - can't remove them to get at them without dropping the motor. BUmmer. also gives you an idea of how much restriction they offer.

balls. Maybe you can lower the subframe a bit to get to them?

[NWS4Guy]

balls. Maybe you can lower the subframe a bit to get to them?

Someone over on another board said you can drop the tranny brace and "let the tranny sag some" to get to the cats. I don't personally like the sound of that, especially if you have a DSG, which has 2 driveshafts concentrically installed.

[StratJohn]

Full drop required. Cats are too big to physically remove unless everything comes apart.
Plus at that rate, once you drop it, you see that the shape of the pipe plays a huge role in flow reduction. Check out this pic- see the bend? Its also got a huge dimple on it to clear steering linkage (both sides, works for euro cars as well you know?). Plus if you're affording the labor to pull the motor, you might as well go whole hog and do headers... and if you're not affording it but DO have the capabilities to do it.. I bet you could weld up a simple tube.


dimple visible here. pics via apr

[NWS4Guy]

Full drop required. Cats are too big to physically remove unless everything comes apart.
Plus at that rate, once you drop it, you see that the shape of the pipe plays a huge role in flow reduction. Check out this pic- see the bend? Its also got a huge dimple on it to clear steering linkage (both sides, works for euro cars as well you know?). Plus if you're affording the labor to pull the motor, you might as well go whole hog and do headers... and if you're not affording it but DO have the capabilities to do it.. I bet you could weld up a simple tube.


dimple visible here. pics via apr

Oh I know, which is why I directly challenged his assertion. He said he was familiar with the engine as it's a version of the 3.2 in the A6, even though I said that I thought it was impossible due to the size of the cats, their not being connected to the downpipes, and that they are quite bulbous and double as resonators as well.

[StratJohn]

Ha Neal I aimed that for beemercer, I know you know.

[NWS4Guy]

Ha Neal I aimed that for beemercer, I know you know.

heh ok, I was thinking "wow he thinks I don't know what it looks like?"

In Beem's defense, he is not intimately familiar with the platform, so I take his questions at face value (plus he's a good guy and doesn't seem to troll for jabs.

[sakimano]

How many of these other dynos are being operated correctly. Are the runs only a few seconds? If they are on loaded dynos, are they running long sweep times to represent the same amount of time it takes to do a pass on the dyno as it does on the street? That will change the results on a supercharged car with the way boost builds and the way the ECU handles it. A 12 second sweep will be different than a 21 second sweep. Also, are you comparing 6MT's to DSG's. They seem to have different drivetrain losses. Also, if our dyno reads 11% higher, why do RS4 stock dynos line up with everything else out there? Why do other cars line up just fine as well?

I think it has to do with running a sophisticated car with a sophisticated ECU with a sophisticated AWD and ESP system on a loaded dyno with proper sweep times compared to just blasting it through the run on an innertia dyno or loaded dyno in less time.


[edit]Also, for what it's worth, I'm not arguing, saying I'm right or wrong or anything like that... just pointing out a few things I've noticed. :-)

all valid questions. I know not of the other dozen or so independant dynos that indicate numbers more like 275-295 and whether they're qualified to work on such sophisticated Audis. I mean, I guess they could all be doing it wrong...but I'm just not too sure. As for why the RS4 at APR dynos in line, I don't know the answer to that either. The torque numbers on the APR RS4 were through the roof relative to the hp numbers, so not sure I'd call it 'inline' (didn't your corrections have it at 370 torque from the factory? Reality is that there should be miles more stock hp than torque on an RS4 on the dyno. Maybe you just dyno'd an RS4 that's making nowhere near the peak hp it should be making when stock, thus throwing off your back-correction to stock. If it made 320whp and 260wtq you'd have pretty normal back corections to 420/325. Instead it made what..290whp270wtq? resulting in you back correcting to 420 crank hp and coming up with a massive stock torque number at the crank).

Anyway, back to the B8 world, these are my observations of numbers guys have posted up...and the quarter mile times and highway pulls confirm this: the stock B8 runs like a 290whp car with a nice curve. Guess what? That's probably what it is. When tuned the car will probably run like a 330-340whp car keeping the 11% rule consistent (~12.6, ~113mph on 93). Guess what? I won't be shocked when it does.

The fact that the fastest stock tune B8 ever (12.8 and 110MPH with an intake) is now trapping 114.8 mph on race gas with the APR tune and an intake shows us that this makes total sense. Not sure how much power that car is making but certainly not 350 crank hp or 290 whp anymore. I also don't think it's making 380-400whp. On race gas I'd say a solid 350-355 WHP. Think APR stage III B5 S4 or a stage III minus B5 S4. Let's have him run uncorrected on a dyno and see. Same for the other APR tuned guys.

Let's back it up...a DSG APR 93 tuned + exhaust + intake B8 S4 lost a nice long pull by a car to a K04 stage 3- B5 S4car with stock intercooler etc. Again...that B5 is probably making 330-340whp...and yet it still pulled on the APR car. The B5 is 300lbs lighter...the APR B8 has probably 10-20WHP more power and way better shifting (DSG). Results are all inline.

Go back again...look at APR's dyno #s of a stock B8 S4 vs. 034 motorsport's dyno #s of jaybquick's B6 S4.
APR B8 320WHP vs. JHM B6 320whp

The B6 ran 12.70 @ 112+ mph. No stock B8 has come anywhere near that. They're closer to 13.0@108mph when bone stock. That 4mph gap shows me it's not making the same power the full bolt on B6 S4 is. I'd submit that shows it's not even close to 320whp stock.

Again, no surprises to the upside for the B8 unless you compare the results to Audi's claimed 333 crank hp. It's certainly more like 350-360 crank. The only real upside surprises have been APR and AWE's B8 dyno #s.