AWE & APR Intakes

[voltrons_head]

AWE released their intake officially today and it appears just to cock block, APR posted a teaser pic of their Carbonio intake on AZ. Take a peak.

APR Carbonio Setup is 2 Stages

Stage 1 replaces the filter and the top of the airbox with the carbon fiber one



Stage 2 includes the same as above as well as a carbon fiber elbow removing the stock resonator




AWE S-Flo uses the oem airbox and replaces the elbow therefore removing the stock resonator

[Sandeman]

carbonio hands down looks the best and also, just looking at it, seems to provide the better numbers... im wondering what the gains are

[voltrons_head]

Awe claims their system does the following.

Highlights of this system:

• Factory airbox is retained for ultimate intake air heat shielding
• OE Style locking rib at inlet and outlet of silicone hose
• High flow silicone hose replaces restrictive factory tube and Helmholtz Resonator
• Significant power gains with stock-like sound
• Peak gains: +10 hp and +6 ft lb at the crank
• Max gains: +15 hp and +11 ft lb at the crank at 7000 rpm
• Washable large cone filter from OEM supplier
• Flows 34% more than the factory paper filter


APR hasn't released any numbers yet.

For comparison, Strat claims an increase of 8hp and 4tq

[sakimano]

wow, great write up V!

as for the products, skeptical cat says wait for track results...dynos for intakes on Audis have been fleecing Audi owners out of hundreds of thousands of dollars for the last 10 years

[DuncanC]

I'm betting none of them do any better than stock. Just your standard new platform here are the generic mods scam. If the NA cars don't see gains I can't see that motor getting any. The little blower on it is the limiting factor, not the pressure drop getting to the in side of the rotors.

[sakimano]

did we ever figure out the 2.25 vs. 2.5 vs stock exhaust question (what is best)? It's kinda weird but it seems like everyone just started jumping into catbacks and intakes right away with the B8 before anyone had tested anything. When guys would say 'HEY! I GOT THE MILLTEK/APR/AWE/???!' I would ask 'what is the exhaust diameter and what is the setup and they'd say 'I got the APR!'

Still haven't heard too much information. I imagine the FI is pretty well designed. Danny doesn't seem to get it wrong too often.

[voltrons_head]

I know that both FI and AWE are 2.5. Don't know anything about the APR setup. Maybe I'll call Corsa tomorrow and find out. Hehe.

As for the intakes, I like the sound of a SC. I don't really see any of these intakes doing much. The criticism of the Strat intake is that it doesn't use the airbox so it could be taking in heat from the engine compartment. Well I'm spraying meth when it counts so I'm forcing the IAT down pretty good as it is. When spring/summer time comes I'll do some runs with and without meth to see the difference as well as when APR's program switching comes out. I'll do a bunch of stock, 93 and 100 runs to see the difference.

[beemercer]

Voltron, if you are so inclined remove the stock intake elbow and grab some pictures (with flash to show the interior) and measurements of diameter.

I've only ever seen one B8 S4 engine bay and I was seeing fumes I was so drunk (H2Oi AZGCC house), so I'm trying to think of what it looked like.

[Matt@oCarbon]

Whatever you do, don't buy a Carbonio just for the looks.

I purchased one of the original V1 Carbonio intakes for the B5 back in 2004. It was a beautiful design and performed perfectly (it's still installed). Every mechanic that has seen it has said its the best intake and the only intake for the B5 that actually performs better than stock.

However, it yellowed and got ugly as sin after 3 months. It turning yellow is what got me interested in carbon fiber in the first place and what started me on my journey for making my own parts (but that is a whole other story).

Fast forward a few years and I've seen a bunch of posts about how the Carbonio intakes yellow pretty quick. Local friend of mine with a B7 has one and his is somehow uglier than mine and his is only a year old.

I noticed in the new B8 thread, someone had asked Keith if they had done anything to address the yellowing, and the question was ignored (which leads me to believe they have not doing anything):



Bottom line: all carbon fiber yellows eventually. Things like heat and UV rays speed this process up dramatically. It is not a problem that only APR/Carbonio has to deal with (ask B7 RS4 owners about their OEM engine covers) so don't take this post as me bashing APR or Carbonio or their products. And to be fair, I'm sure if my trim parts got stuck in an engine bay over the summer, they'd probably yellow too.

So if you like the performance gains or the increased airflow or whatever, I say go it. But don't let how it looks when its new be the deciding factor on if you're going to purchase this intake. Give it 6-12 months and see how others intakes are holding up if looks are important to you (or at the very least, wait until someone at APR acknowledges that there were problems and they have been addressed by using different materials).

[StratJohn]

In the most horribly opinionated and biased statement ever:

The carbonio is what I'd do if cost was no option.

The AWE is what I'd do to cheat.



On a more polite, factual level, I think the carbonio is wicked pretty looking.
The AWE clearly holds down the market for people who don't want to hear the intake.

As for power, there are some substantial claims..

Primetime has times for all of his runs, including stock and strat intake only.
I know the DA changes, so maybe someone can factor that, but the numbers were better in the 1/4.

That being said, its preference in the end.

[Joey]

Curious, i think i asked this before, but how is the radiator setup on the B8? Still 3 rads ( 1 main and 2 auxiliary)? I'm just curious to see if there is an auxiliary one right under the airbox like in the B6/B7

[voltrons_head]

Voltron, if you are so inclined remove the stock intake elbow and grab some pictures (with flash to show the interior) and measurements of diameter.

I've only ever seen one B8 S4 engine bay and I was seeing fumes I was so drunk (H2Oi AZGCC house), so I'm trying to think of what it looked like.

I'll take some pics cause it's sitting ont he floor in my garage.

LOL. The car you saw at the GCC house didn't happen to be mine was it? I was there but I don't remember meeting you so maybe it was Kevin's? Was it black or meteor gray?

[sakimano]

I'll take some pics cause it's sitting ont he floor in my garage.

LOL. The car you saw at the GCC house didn't happen to be mine was it? I was there. I don't remember meeting you so maybe it was Kevin's? Was it black or meteor gray?

probably $30 bk pizza Kevin's

[DaveD]

I've had a carbonio on 3 of my Audi's, not a single one fit right Then again, I didnt pay more than $50 for any of them so it was a purely cosmetic upgrade that I couldn't turn down for the price

[StratJohn]

Curious, i think i asked this before, but how is the radiator setup on the B8? Still 3 rads ( 1 main and 2 auxiliary)? I'm just curious to see if there is an auxiliary one right under the airbox like in the B6/B7

Negative. Fair bit of space on the intake side. In the instructions for our intake, you can see the fender liner to the left, with the shield sitting on the 'frame', open engine bay on the right, the headlight to the lower left, and if you were to reach under the OEM intake tract from the grill edge, you can feel it go all the way forward. On the other side of our shield is the start of the radiator. Below all that, there is.. that thing I can't remember, aux pump housing (plastic), right near the fog light.. this is off the top of my head. Other than that, without the underpan on, you can see the ground.

[primetime]

Primetime has times for all of his runs, including stock and strat intake only.
I know the DA changes, so maybe someone can factor that, but the numbers were better in the 1/4.

That being said, its preference in the end.

Here you go bud! Fortunately, the DA's were very close between those runs.... I am very tempted to buy all 3 test them(track and dyno) and sell the two that don't perform as well as the best!

DA 1700 Dragtimes - 770 miles - stock, 93 octane - ESP/ASR off
1.8512 60ft
5.3891 330ft
8.2743 1/8 mile
85.51 1/8 mph
10.7545 1000 foot et
12.8523 1/4 time
108.44 mph

Corrected
12.771 at 109.13

DA 1800 Dragtimes - 1900 miles - intake, 93 octane - ESP/ASR off
1.8438 60ft
5.3769 330ft
8.2600 1/8 mile
85.67 1/8 mph
10.7349 1000 foot et
12.8188 1/4 time
109.74 mph

Corrected
12.727 at 110.53

[sakimano]

so 5/100ths which can be explained by a breeze. The MPH difference is bigger though. Hard to compare different runs on different days. I'd say it's kind of a wash anyway. Could be you getting used to launching the car too.

When I went in November, I changed nothing from week 1 to week 2, but improved 0.5mph and 0.09 seconds...and the DA was worse when I went faster. I chalked it up to variables that were out of my control. While a tenth or half a tenth is nice for bragging rights on a list, I certainly wouldn't point to it to validate one of my mods.

[voltrons_head]

When I was speaking with Dennis Duba and Harold something or other from MTM they claimed that the OEM intake design of the B8 S4 was such that it would be hard to improve upon. Even improved upon it wouldn't affect performance as the OEM unit was supplying more than ample air to the engine. Take that FWIW.

To that I said, "Well, you wanna woo wooooooooo!"

[primetime]

so 5/100ths which can be explained by a breeze. The MPH difference is bigger though. Hard to compare different runs on different days. I'd say it's kind of a wash anyway. Could be you getting used to launching the car too.

When I went in November, I changed nothing from week 1 to week 2, but improved 0.5mph and 0.09 seconds...and the DA was worse when I went faster. I chalked it up to variables that were out of my control. While a tenth or half a tenth is nice for bragging rights on a list, I certainly wouldn't point to it to validate one of my mods.

Agreed.... What I really needed to do but failed at is making passes the same day with and w/o the intake.... especially post tune.... I do believe it is helping but not sure how much honestly.....

[sakimano]

Agreed.... What I really needed to do but failed at is making passes the same day with and w/o the intake.... especially post tune.... I do believe it is helping but not sure how much honestly.....

NO...that's what STRAT needed to do. And APR. And AWE. Not the customers!

I don't think any B8 S4 owner on earth would say you've 'failed' the community in any way.

[voltrons_head]

@Prime - How busy does Thompson get on a spring weekend afternoon? Come April we'll get a B8 test day going and do a plethora of different runs in different configs. I'll start badgering Keith in Jan/Feb about program switching so I can run 100 octane with the big boys.

[primetime]

NO...that's what STRAT needed to do. And APR. And AWE. Not the customers!

I don't think any B8 S4 owner on earth would say you've 'failed' the community in any way.

Thanks Sak! I just like to try and help.... I actually enjoy it as you can probably tell but I definetly agree with your point on the manufactuer or distributor doing the testing....

@Prime - How busy does Thompson get on a spring weekend afternoon? Come April we'll get a B8 test day going and do a plethora of different runs in different configs. I'll start badgering Keith in Jan/Feb about program switching so I can run 100 octane with the big boys.

Volt, It really is weather and event driven.... Most April's there are no events and they run from 10am to 5pm.... Schedule for 2011 isn't out yet I just checked... During that time we could easily get 10-15 runs on a slower day and 5-10 on a busier day.... Man it would be really cool for you to come out my way and make some passes.... If you get the switching you can drive here on 93 and I can take you too a station to get the 100 as I have mentioned there are 3-4 locally.... Once I see the schedule you and I can make some preliminary plans and go from there.... There are a few locals but they haven't taken up my offers to go to the track yet so I can't promise I can get them motivated to come....

[StratJohn]

NO...that's what STRAT needed to do. And APR. And AWE. Not the customers!

...

so 5/100ths which can be explained by a breeze. The MPH difference is bigger though. Hard to compare different runs on different days. I'd say it's kind of a wash anyway. Could be you getting used to launching the car too.

When I went in November, I changed nothing from week 1 to week 2, but improved 0.5mph and 0.09 seconds...and the DA was worse when I went faster. I chalked it up to variables that were out of my control. While a tenth or half a tenth is nice for bragging rights on a list, I certainly wouldn't point to it to validate one of my mods.

I too, am human.

So unless the product makes a 3-5mph difference, or pulls a second, it's not worth talking about because it could be driver related, and if it DID, it'd be biased corporate research, which is why people clamor for independent testing..

..which is why a lot of companies don't do it..
..which is why consumers say its not proven...
..which is why customers show drag times..
..which is why the internet says we should be doing it..
..which is then discredited...
..which is why a lot of companies don't do it..
..which is w... hey! wtf?

[voltrons_head]

^^I'm getting dizzy.

[beemercer]

I'll take some pics cause it's sitting ont he floor in my garage.

LOL. The car you saw at the GCC house didn't happen to be mine was it? I was there but I don't remember meeting you so maybe it was Kevin's? Was it black or meteor gray?

It was Kevin's I believe.

Post the pictures if you get a chance

probably $30 bk pizza Kevin's

lol, good memory

"Well, you wanna woo wooooooooo!"

Careful with those words, you get banned..

[sakimano]

...


I too, am human.

So unless the product makes a 3-5mph difference, or pulls a second, it's not worth talking about because it could be driver related, and if it DID, it'd be biased corporate research, which is why people clamor for independent testing..

..which is why a lot of companies don't do it..
..which is why consumers say its not proven...
..which is why customers show drag times..
..which is why the internet says we should be doing it..
..which is then discredited...
..which is why a lot of companies don't do it..
..which is w... hey! wtf?

?

people question dyno numbers because anyone can make a car dyno whatever they want it to

who on earth questions track times? I think you're confused.

Anyway, if gains are tiny (i.e. 0.05 seconds or half a mph), selling a product on those gains is crazy. Selling the product as a smart part of a system makes sense. Backing up that product with the reasons it (should) work also makes sense. JHM does this with stuff like the intake spacers and the crank pulley. They're not going to sell it on a dyno or a track time...but they certainly give a good thesis for their value as part of an overall mods system. Last time I checked they've sold hundreds (if not a thousand or two) of each...and I don't hear folks debating the merit of those two products on the forums.

Some intakes on the other hand have been shown to make cars SLOWER in the past...have been shown to be ineffective with logic...and have not been backed up by their makers. Hence the skeptical cat appearance.

[StratJohn]

Bear in mind I'm not making a stab at anyone or anything, just sayin'.

I know people question dyno numbers.

The reason I quoted -you- was because you said people want track numbers, then when provided, via a third party, you chalk it up to driver interaction. But I would too- I mean honestly, how consistent can one be, especially on a 6mt? Tire variances, tire pressure, clutches, exact launch technique.. it all adds up. Every run makes you a little better.

Meanwhile, I entirely agree on the system approach. Prime's car is running pretty much (what I, at least) would refer to as the cream of the crop for products out there at the moment (ok, minus headers). And his car is all sorts of fast. So like, that should show something right?

Plus, didn't Zerin (Strat intake, Milltek Non-Res, 6mt) punk NickS (APR 93 tune, Exhaust, stock intake, DSG) in a couple drag races?

Alas. There is a new crop of product available and this conversation will never go away.

[sakimano]

yeah, I know nothing about the new intake. What I was saying was simple:

either:

a) test it and show performance gains
b) back up the design and outline the benefits and let the customer decide if it's one of those 'every little bit helps' mods that they'll have to trust.

I said it to primetime (not you) because there's no way in the world he should feel that he 'failed' by not doing the performance testing. That's the kind of stuff the manufacturers really ought to be doing. It's sad that in order for Audi S4 owners (B5/6/7/8) to uncover who among the tuners is clothed and who is naked, we as a community feel that we need to buy and then performance test their parts. Why are they all so unwilling to do this for us? (well...almost all)

[voltrons_head]

Voltron, if you are so inclined remove the stock intake elbow and grab some pictures (with flash to show the interior) and measurements of diameter

The elbow is 3 3/4" at the airbox and 3" at the other end. It's diameter gets reduced at the bend just before the resonator. You can see the opening for the resonator in the inside shots.

[sakimano]

needs a special aluminium alloy version. I wonder how long before that shows up in b8 land

[beemercer]

I'd at least cut the resonator off and cover the hole. Is that the MAF housing towards the outlet?

[StratJohn]

MAF stuff is inside the SC housing, past the TB.

[NWS4Guy]

MAF stuff is inside the SC housing, past the TB.

Well what is used for MAF, it doesn't actually have a MAF, it uses resonation to predict the airflow, so anything happening before this won't disturb the way it's calculated - just increase or decrease the amount of air getting to the sensors and thus the SC.

[B8bydesign]

Whatever you do, don't buy a Carbonio just for the looks.

I purchased one of the original V1 Carbonio intakes for the B5 back in 2004. It was a beautiful design and performed perfectly (it's still installed). Every mechanic that has seen it has said its the best intake and the only intake for the B5 that actually performs better than stock.

However, it yellowed and got ugly as sin after 3 months. It turning yellow is what got me interested in carbon fiber in the first place and what started me on my journey for making my own parts (but that is a whole other story).

Fast forward a few years and I've seen a bunch of posts about how the Carbonio intakes yellow pretty quick. Local friend of mine with a B7 has one and his is somehow uglier than mine and his is only a year old.

I noticed in the new B8 thread, someone had asked Keith if they had done anything to address the yellowing, and the question was ignored (which leads me to believe they have not doing anything):



Bottom line: all carbon fiber yellows eventually. Things like heat and UV rays speed this process up dramatically. It is not a problem that only APR/Carbonio has to deal with (ask B7 RS4 owners about their OEM engine covers) so don't take this post as me bashing APR or Carbonio or their products. And to be fair, I'm sure if my trim parts got stuck in an engine bay over the summer, they'd probably yellow too.

So if you like the performance gains or the increased airflow or whatever, I say go it. But don't let how it looks when its new be the deciding factor on if you're going to purchase this intake. Give it 6-12 months and see how others intakes are holding up if looks are important to you (or at the very least, wait until someone at APR acknowledges that there were problems and they have been addressed by using different materials).

Yep, that was me. I experienced terrible yellowing with the Carbonio I had on my B7 A4, not sure why they didn't address it in that thread, oh well....

[StratJohn]

Well what is used for MAF, it doesn't actually have a MAF, it uses resonation to predict the airflow, so anything happening before this won't disturb the way it's calculated - just increase or decrease the amount of air getting to the sensors and thus the SC.

Bingo.

[sakimano]

Yep, that was me. I experienced terrible yellowing with the Carbonio I had on my B7 A4, not sure why they didn't address it in that thread, oh well....

Ask the question again. Quote yourself...and ask if there's any thoughts/comments from APR on your question.

It will be hard to ignore if you do that...but if you just randomly ask again, it will be easy to ignore. re-quoting your original will be impossible to ignore I'll say.

[B8bydesign]

Ask the question again. Quote yourself...and ask if there's any thoughts/comments from APR on your question.

It will be hard to ignore if you do that...but if you just randomly ask again, it will be easy to ignore. re-quoting your original will be impossible to ignore I'll say.

Took your advice. I was originally just going to let it go, wouldn't matter much to me as I don't anticipate purchasing one, but anyone else who's had one before was probably wondering the same thing I am.

[Matt@oCarbon]

Took your advice. I was originally just going to let it go, wouldn't matter much to me as I don't anticipate purchasing one, but anyone else who's had one before was probably wondering the same thing I am.

Their response is a little interesting.

They aren't lying about all carbon fiber yellowing (as I said before), but to me it seems a little misleading that they are selling a product that is advertised as "attractive" when you know that will only last a few months.

Trying to pass the yellowing off as a "badge of honor" is kind of silly. Mine yellowed very quickly and I drive like a grandma.

[StratJohn]

That yellowing happens as a result of proximity to heat. So the right side of that intake is going to yellow first. Then, the bottom left hand of the intake tube will too.

The part that was interesting was the rate of decay; something like for every 20* above room temp, you double the rate at which the carbon would yellow. So for example, the hot side could be hitting 140* pretty easily, which will yellow that stuff 6x faster than the left side of the intake.

I wouldn't mind if something yellowed uniformly, but, bleeding yellow is kinda funky.
What about dying it? Maybe Matt can chime in? Does it still yellow if its say, blue? Or does it turn green?

[DaveD]

Yea, my last carbonio was the worst with yellowing: