New dyno #'s...

[primetime]

Well since I won't be getting any feedback on the other site that I posted these I figured I would try to stimulate some discussion over here...

ECS asked that I bring the car back after the retune to dyno it again... Anyway, new numbers are below... I have hard copies of the sheets but not the PDF yet... I'll post when I recieve it or scan these Monday in the office... Just thought I would post for those that are curious... ECS uses a Mustang dyno as well...

361 AWHP - 345 AWTQ
360 AWHP - 343 AWTQ
360 AWHP - 342 AWTQ

Mods are 100 octane APR tune, pulley, 034 LFC's, Miltek non-res DP and catback... stock intake... I also have BBS CH-R's since wheels can impact dyno numbers... Here are the prior ones below...

345 AWHP - 323 AWTQ
343 AWHP - 320 AWTQ
342 AWHP - 331 AWTQ(TQ spike probably more like 320ish)

Those were with the same mods and just the tune corrected...

Honestly, was hoping for a little more but it is what it is... Car went 12.12 at 115 Wed. in 2800+ DA...

Have the CPS in my garage and most of the piecses for the intake I am fabricating... May do the intake or a piece of the CPS next and then hit the track again... Weather is going to start getting better around here soon... My brother asked me today when I wanted to pull the blower for porting... Not sure if I will do that first or get headers... Can't find someone to install them around here...

[beemercer]

Curious how long between each dyno pull? That's scary consistent, and if the pulls were back-back-back honestly makes me feel like the coolant system may not be a huge boon.

Any stock cars run on that dyno? I know a 4.2 S4 is normally 260whp/245wtq on a Mustang and my S4 did 328whp/300wtq so rough and dirty is was like 420chp/370chp. I'm mostly interested in back calculating not for dick measuring, but more so we can get an idea of how close you are to maxing out the blower.

[primetime]

Curious how long between each dyno pull? That's scary consistent, and if the pulls were back-back-back honestly makes me feel like the coolant system may not be a huge boon.

Any stock cars run on that dyno? I know a 4.2 S4 is normally 260whp/245wtq on a Mustang and my S4 did 328whp/300wtq so rough and dirty is was like 420chp/370chp. I'm mostly interested in back calculating not for dick measuring, but more so we can get an idea of how close you are to maxing out the blower.

Dyno's were 31 minutes apart on 1-2 and 8 minutes apart 2-3... I agree on the consistency point... It's like that at the strip also... Last time at the dyno was consistent as well...

Good question on the stock car at ECS, not positive... Nick from the forums had his car there so maybe... That would be a good tell tale sign... I think the port is good for a psi or so...

What are your thoughts on the cats? I am seeing about the lowest boost numbers of the pulley guys(only seen 2-3 logs) and if the cats were restrictive I would think I would see higher boost readings as a result of the backpressure... thoughts?

[Ill 3.0]

What's the evidence out there on porting TVS blowers? I know it helped the older roots blowers in some cases, but you definitely need to be careful as it may loose efficiency if its not done with careful planning.

[steve0827]

I thought I read somewhere that the B8 S4's were dynoing 330awhp stock?

EDIT: I think it was APR's dyno sheet at WF

[beemercer]

I thought I read somewhere that the B8 S4's were dynoing 330awhp stock?

EDIT: I think it was APR's dyno sheet at WF

I've seen those sheets as well, the stock car runs more like a 300whp car with a strong powerband so I'd go with that. Plus APR is a hub dyne so their losses may be lower.

Saki should be able to shed more light on it.

[beemercer]

What are your thoughts on the cats? I am seeing about the lowest boost numbers of the pulley guys(only seen 2-3 logs) and if the cats were restrictive I would think I would see higher boost readings as a result of the backpressure... thoughts?

Yeah that's a logical deduction. Is this boost measured via vcds or a gauge (location of the boost tap would be very relevant as well, or if its on a line outside of the manifold where does it hook up).

Can you log a duty cycle for the boost bypass valve (I'm kinda throwing stuff out there don't know the system at all). If you are recording boost lower with the factory sensor and that sensor is after the bypass valve possibly the ecu is opening the valve to bleed boost because the cats are holding everything back up/heating up combustion chambers/causing more knock?


If you have the capability it may be telling to log boost, bypass valve activity, knock voltage, ignition timing compared to another similarly nodded car with either headers or stock cats? See how they vary, if you have higher knock and less timing/boost with more valve opening maybe that's the answer? May be tough to get a good comparison since you have the 100 octane tune.

Heat from cats is a killer with the V8s so I can imagine it'd be even more so with the blower on there. For us aftermarket 2.5" downpipes with HFCs in the stock pre-cat position (right off the flange like the V6T cats) are worse than just taking the stock downpipes and popping that pre-cat out.

Has anyone built a proper downpipe, basically straight pipe until under the car then a HFC? We still don't have that with the V8s, its either piggies (pre cat gutted, lower main cat retained), catless straight pipes or headers. I'd think that'd do a better job and if you move the O2 sensors down to that cat (the rears) it shouldn't really need a tune.


just some thoughts, its kinda garbled I'm on top of a furnace ag the moment lol

[primetime]

What's the evidence out there on porting TVS blowers? I know it helped the older roots blowers in some cases, but you definitely need to be careful as it may loose efficiency if its not done with careful planning.

Yes I have talked to Stiegmeir several times on porting the blower... They have done several from the CTS-V and ZR-1 which are essentially the same blower just bigger with the V being a 1.9L and the ZR-1 being a 2.3L, and our blower is a 1.32L They told me there is a good opportunity with this blower... I also talked to some of the engineers at Eaton since my wife works for them....

Yeah that's a logical deduction. Is this boost measured via vcds or a gauge (location of the boost tap would be very relevant as well, or if its on a line outside of the manifold where does it hook up).

Can you log a duty cycle for the boost bypass valve (I'm kinda throwing stuff out there don't know the system at all). If you are recording boost lower with the factory sensor and that sensor is after the bypass valve possibly the ecu is opening the valve to bleed boost because the cats are holding everything back up/heating up combustion chambers/causing more knock?


If you have the capability it may be telling to log boost, bypass valve activity, knock voltage, ignition timing compared to another similarly nodded car with either headers or stock cats? See how they vary, if you have higher knock and less timing/boost with more valve opening maybe that's the answer? May be tough to get a good comparison since you have the 100 octane tune.

Heat from cats is a killer with the V8s so I can imagine it'd be even more so with the blower on there. For us aftermarket 2.5" downpipes with HFCs in the stock pre-cat position (right off the flange like the V6T cats) are worse than just taking the stock downpipes and popping that pre-cat out.

Has anyone built a proper downpipe, basically straight pipe until under the car then a HFC? We still don't have that with the V8s, its either piggies (pre cat gutted, lower main cat retained), catless straight pipes or headers. I'd think that'd do a better job and if you move the O2 sensors down to that cat (the rears) it shouldn't really need a tune.


just some thoughts, its kinda garbled I'm on top of a furnace ag the moment lol

Appreciate the input... All my measurements are via vagcom logging... I also usually log bypass, IAT's, and if timing is getting pulled... No bypass, reasonable IAT's and no timing pull with some of the numbers I quoted... Even in 90+ heat at the strip on back to back passes my IAT's were high 70's and low 80's... When I ran 12.0 last fall the IAT's were high 40's low 50's... I am hoping the CPS that gets installed next week will bring my current summer time IAT's more in line...

I like your idea of comparing to similar cars and now that switching is out I will be able to do that more easily since I can run 93 or others can run 100...

You mention knock voltage... help me understand that and do you know the vag field by chance... Wouldn't timing being pulled tell me if the car was detonating or pre-igniting?

No real solution on the cat setup yet as 034 is the only company that sells or has sold them... I may pull these and gut them or go with Eurocode headers but want to see some results other than seat of the pants... Again, thanks for the input...

[sakimano]

Dyno's were 31 minutes apart on 1-2 and 8 minutes apart 2-3... I agree on the consistency point... It's like that at the strip also... Last time at the dyno was consistent as well...

Good question on the stock car at ECS, not positive... Nick from the forums had his car there so maybe... That would be a good tell tale sign... I think the port is good for a psi or so...

What are your thoughts on the cats? I am seeing about the lowest boost numbers of the pulley guys(only seen 2-3 logs) and if the cats were restrictive I would think I would see higher boost readings as a result of the backpressure... thoughts?

what were your boost numbers BEFORE cats and before pulley? Someone said you were making more boost than anyone when you were stock. Might explain the lack of 'jump'.

Of course that would mean your stock pulley isn't stock size, which is pretty much impossible, but just thought I'd ask to clarify.

[sakimano]

I thought I read somewhere that the B8 S4's were dynoing 330awhp stock?

EDIT: I think it was APR's dyno sheet at WF

I've seen those sheets as well, the stock car runs more like a 300whp car with a strong powerband so I'd go with that. Plus APR is a hub dyne so their losses may be lower.

Saki should be able to shed more light on it.

supercharged cars dyno really nicely, so it's hard to say what is 'standard'

APR dyno'd a stock B8 at 316 whp, then applied 25% drivetrain loss to start the mayhem in B8 world that the car makes 420hp.

They forgot to mention they have a hub dyno, incredible cooling and fan systems, and often boosted cars dyno quite a bit higher there than they do anywhere else. When I raised doubts about this drivetrain loss in the B8 forum on AZ:

a) I was instantly labelled a B8 hater, a title I carry to this day which is pretty funny as I've never said anything bad about the car other than I don't like the sound or the way the ass tapers...otherwise it's an awesome car.

b) Keith @ APR stepped in and admitted that he thinks drivetrain loss for modern Audis on the APR dyno is actually closer to the mid teens %, rather than the 25% drivetrain loss people apply to 10 year old B5 S4s that dyno 195whp stock on a mustang dyno.

c) The next half dozen customers who went on traditional roller dynos (dynojet/mustang) showed 279-295 whp after this, affirming everything I said in the APR dyno thread.

So all in, the car dynos high 200s/low 300s stock (unless you calibrate/correct the fuck out of your dyno, at which point who cares as far as comparison goes), and they perform extremely well because they have an incredible torque curve. Their area under the curve is the reason they shock the shit out of everyone....not their peak hp (or whp). Audi advertises 333hp at the crank in stock form, but that's bullshit. It makes an easy 360hp as the dynos and more importantly dragstrip numbers and acceleration testing shows. For whatever reason they lowball the claimed hp. So does Porsche. So does Nissan with the GTR. Life goes on!

[sakimano]

No real solution on the cat setup yet as 034 is the only company that sells or has sold them... I may pull these and gut them or go with Eurocode headers but want to see some results other than seat of the pants... Again, thanks for the input...

as for the cats, what's the stock part like? Is it guttable? WTF is in that big balloon?


EC headers won't work for you...once eurocode headers are installed, the car is allergic to the dragstrip.

[sakimano]

Has anyone built a proper downpipe, basically straight pipe until under the car then a HFC? We still don't have that with the V8s, its either piggies (pre cat gutted, lower main cat retained), catless straight pipes or headers. I'd think that'd do a better job and if you move the O2 sensors down to that cat (the rears) it shouldn't really need a tune.


just some thoughts, its kinda garbled I'm on top of a furnace ag the moment lol

I don't even know if anyone has made a proper CATBACK yet. The Milltek for example is 2.36". Who knows about the others...the B8 forum guys don't. Everytime I ask for the layout and diameter of stock and aftermarket catbacks I hear "milltek sounds the best"

Anyone ever see the piping size on the Nissan GTR downpipes and catback? Fast B5 S4s? Or the 911 turbo? Guess what...it's not 2.36".

[Ill 3.0]

They told me there is a good opportunity with this blower...

Interesting, nice to hear both Stiegemeier and Eaton say it would help. I assume Eaton is still non-committal about the availability of the R1650?

[primetime]

what were your boost numbers BEFORE cats and before pulley? Someone said you were making more boost than anyone when you were stock. Might explain the lack of 'jump'.

Of course that would mean your stock pulley isn't stock size, which is pretty much impossible, but just thought I'd ask to clarify.

Peak boost logged via vagcom was 13.45... I have seen 13.99 post pulley so about .5psi I think I will see a further increase with better air maybe another .5psi... My Mustang usually makes about 16-17 in the summer and 17-18 in the fall... Trust me both pulleys are correct as APR had ECS measure it to make sure it was the right one since it made no more power after the install, of course that was with the tune that needed tweaked... LOL Maybe my motor is just less restrictive... maybe the cats actually work???

as for the cats, what's the stock part like? Is it guttable? WTF is in that big balloon?


EC headers won't work for you...once eurocode headers are installed, the car is allergic to the dragstrip.

Huge diameter vs the very small diameter for the 034's... I dont have pics but they are probably 50% bigger which is why you need to drop the motor but I could remove these w/o doing that now... Yes there guttable but I know I could get similar results doing that with the 034's so that is what I will most likely try first...

LOL... I'd be at the track the next Wed. Fri. or Sat. after install...

I don't even know if anyone has made a proper CATBACK yet. The Milltek for example is 2.36". Who knows about the others...the B8 forum guys don't. Everytime I ask for the layout and diameter of stock and aftermarket catbacks I hear "milltek sounds the best"

Anyone ever see the piping size on the Nissan GTR downpipes and catback? Fast B5 S4s? Or the 911 turbo? Guess what...it's not 2.36".

Well I guess I am one of the guys that don't know but I had too buy something... The miltek shaved about .1-.15 off my times but the DA was about 600ft better also... In the end I can't test them all and most likely no one else will so unless I want to wait years I have to try something...

Interesting, nice to hear both Stiegemeier and Eaton say it would help. I assume Eaton is still non-committal about the availability of the R1650?

Well... I have heard for a while that they were very close to a deal with a German auto maker that wanted to use the 1.65L in 13 or 14... Haven't heard anymore though... There was a reason they made that size blower though trust me...

[Quick_Quattro]

Can we get some video when you go to the strip.


Your car makes me want to forget about an RS4 and get a B8 S4.

[sakimano]

Peak boost logged via vagcom was 13.45... I have seen 13.99 post pulley so about .5psi I think I will see a further increase with better air maybe another .5psi... My Mustang usually makes about 16-17 in the summer and 17-18 in the fall... Trust me both pulleys are correct as APR had ECS measure it to make sure it was the right one since it made no more power after the install, of course that was with the tune that needed tweaked... LOL Maybe my motor is just less restrictive... maybe the cats actually work???

I mean on stock tune...what were your boost levels?

Well I guess I am one of the guys that don't know but I had too buy something... The miltek shaved about .1-.15 off my times but the DA was about 600ft better also... In the end I can't test them all and most likely no one else will so unless I want to wait years I have to try something...

yeah it's definitely better than the stock 2.25 (I think that's what it is) system, but what I'm wondering is if you would benefit from it being bigger?
You're making lots of power and are certainly overwhelming 2x2.36" piping.

[primetime]

Can we get some video when you go to the strip.


Your car makes me want to forget about an RS4 and get a B8 S4.

I always take vids... gopros and if I can get my brother to go out of car vids... Here is one of my better runs on vid and a inside view of a 12.22 run...

[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-v-vm6cTLsw]2010 Audi S4 videos 2 - YouTube[/ame]

[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dsMqFeuf8Rg]GOPR0048 - YouTube[/ame]

I mean on stock tune...what were your boost levels?


yeah it's definitely better than the stock 2.25 (I think that's what it is) system, but what I'm wondering is if you would benefit from it being bigger?
You're making lots of power and are certainly overwhelming 2x2.36" piping.

No stock logs... So not sure on the boost #...

Not sure on the exhaust... I think this car would benefit from a larger intake and TB more than larger catabck...

[sakimano]

Not sure on the exhaust... I think this car would benefit from a larger intake and TB more than larger catabck...

Well, one is easily do-able, and one is an expensive R&D project that may never get done. I'll put my money (your money) on the bigger exhaust.

[sakimano]

Can we get some video when you go to the strip.


Your car makes me want to forget about an RS4 and get a B8 S4.

I think primetime has more dragstrip youtube videos than anyone in any Audi ever has!

Think about this though with B8 vs. RS4 - the fastest B8 is PT on race gas. On pump, the fastest is fonzie, who ran 12.27 on pump + exhaust + high flow cats + LW wheels + intake + APR 93 tune = $6500 in mods + labour including a half engine pull for the cats. Dan @ JHM ran 12.30 on full exhaust, clutch, LW wheels, intake spacers crank pulley and JHM tune = $6500 in mods.

The less highly modded B8 guys who go intake + tune + catback (total of $4000 it should be noted) tend to be up in the 12.60-12.80 range at 109-112. That's a B7 RS4 + piggies + JHM tune (total mods cost $500)


So performance is eerily similar now that JHM stepped into RS4ville.

[primetime]

Well, one is easily do-able, and one is an expensive R&D project that may never get done. I'll put my money (your money) on the bigger exhaust.

Good thing my brother owns a machine shop and loves R&D car projects

[ENVē]

Saki, I now take away my thoughts of you hating the B8 hahaha.

Prime, ill be a test mule for you on the east coast for larger TB...

Im just gonna wait on JHM in a few years to tune my car.

[sakimano]

Saki, I now take away my thoughts of you hating the B8 hahaha.

to be honest, I don't get that. The problems I've had with the B8 world stem from 2 situations:

1) I've pointed out when someone says something stupidly optimistic about the B8 ("it comes with 420hp stock!" or "it runs low 12s with just a tune" or "it's the most cost effective dollar for dollar of all the S4s to run x.xx". Reality is a bitch and they see it as hating. When someone tells you something you don't want to hear, of course you don't like their point of view. Saying they hate the car...that's just blatant insecurity looking for an excuse for their facts countering your opinion.

2) I've pointed out the TRUTH about the 4.2 cars I know so well when B8 guys have shit talked them. For disagreeing, again, I'm labelled a B8 hater. Umm...how about I'm just informed on the 4.2 cars and I like the S4/S5/RS4. How the fuck is that hating the B8? Anyway, when I correct them, this shows that those guys know very little, and they get embarrassed. Their retaliation is understandable...egos bruise easily on car forums.

If you do your best, you'll never find me 'hating' or shit talking the B8. Just shit-talking a few choice mouthpiece B8 owners who need an intellectual beating now and then lol.

I now have 5 friends who drive B8 S4s...the sole reason being that they came to me for car buying advice and I pointed them to the B8. I must really hate it lol.